Anti-MCPS Groups Fail to Apply for Membership: Board Gives Them One More Chance
I left work early today to attend the meeting, but the MCPS Board of Education did not announce the membership of the new citizens committee. Instead, they gave CRC and PFOX (plus a student group called MCR) two more weeks to apply.
Of course those groups knew when the deadline was, and they know what the rules are. They just don't think they have to follow the rules. CRC President Michelle Turner was very clear in public comments this morning, that they don't think they should have to follow the rules. They think that they only have to adhere to the legal settlement, and that the Board policies regarding application to the committee, including deadlines, qualifications, application procedures, etc., are only for other groups.
Just to document the progression of things, I am blogging here three letters that were sent by the school board to the President of the CRC. As you read these, you will see that there is no question they knew what they had to do.
Here’s what the President of the school board sent to the President of CRC back in July:
The board was also kind enough to remind the CRC, the day before applications were due, that theirs had not yet been received. Just a friendly reminder, y’know.
TeachTheFacts.org didn’t get any reminder, we had to mail our applications in, ourselves. CRC is getting red-carpet treatment here.
Several weeks after applications were due, the board sent CRC this extra-special pretty-please-with-sugar-on-it.
So, there we were, sitting in the board’s meeting room today, more than a month after the application deadline, and Mrs. O’Neill read a letter expressing the board’s intention for now. They’re going to give the CRC another two weeks.
This must be some kind of legal CYA, because everybody knows they have no intention of applying. It loses the county two weeks of time when we could have been working.
Let me spell it out to you. The CRC wants to sue. They want to waste the people's money, they want to waste everybody's time, they want to drag this thing on in the boardroom and then go to court and drag it out there.
They are not going to follow the application procedures. Then, when the Board assembles the committee and leaves their seats vacant, they can sue and say that they were "promised" membership in their legal agreement. They can say the school board violated the agreement by starting the committee without them.
Even though the problem is really that they have never applied.
They need to submit names of three people from each group who live in the county and have never served on the committee before. We did it, according to the board over 180 people managed to apply for this 15-person committee, but CRC just can’t manage to get their homework turned in.
Why would they do that?
Because they know they'll never win by playing fair. They know that if there's an honest discussion, they'll lose it. This is the only chance they have.
Of course those groups knew when the deadline was, and they know what the rules are. They just don't think they have to follow the rules. CRC President Michelle Turner was very clear in public comments this morning, that they don't think they should have to follow the rules. They think that they only have to adhere to the legal settlement, and that the Board policies regarding application to the committee, including deadlines, qualifications, application procedures, etc., are only for other groups.
Just to document the progression of things, I am blogging here three letters that were sent by the school board to the President of the CRC. As you read these, you will see that there is no question they knew what they had to do.
Here’s what the President of the school board sent to the President of CRC back in July:
July 28, 2005
Mrs. Michelle Turner
President, CRC
***** Drive
Silver Spring, Maryland
Dear Mrs. Turner:
As you are undoubtedly aware, the Board of Education, at its meeting of July 27th, approved the enclosed resolution to reconstitute the Citizens Advisory Committee for Family Life and Human Development Committee, along with the charge to the committee. One of the seats on the committee has been reserved for a representative of the Citizens for Responsible Curriculum.
Please find enclosed a copy of the press release and the application form being utilized to solicit applicants for the committee. Pursuant to the terms of the adopted resolution, please submit to the Board your nominee and two alternate nominees, provided that they are bona fide residents of Montgomery County and have not served on this committee previously.
The Board anticipates making its appointment of the committee membership, from among those nominated, at its meeting of October 11, 2005.
Sincerely,
Patricia O'Neill
President
The board was also kind enough to remind the CRC, the day before applications were due, that theirs had not yet been received. Just a friendly reminder, y’know.
TeachTheFacts.org didn’t get any reminder, we had to mail our applications in, ourselves. CRC is getting red-carpet treatment here.
September 8, 2005
Mrs. Michelle Turner
President, CRC
***** Drive
Silver Spring, Maryland
Dear Mrs. Turner:
The deadline for the applications from both individuals and organizations to the reconstituted Citizens Advisory Committee for Family Life and Human Development is September 9, 2005, as set forth in the press release and application form previously sent to you. I wanted to take this opportunity to reaffirm that a seat on this Committee has been reserved for CRC and to request that you submit a nominee and two alternate nominees who are bona fide residents of Montgomery County and who have not served on the Committee previously.
You were formally advised by Board President Patricia O'Neill, by letter dated July 28, 2005, of the Board's action the previous evening establishing procedures to reconstitute the Committee and of the Board's charge to the Committee. This followed correspondences dated June 29, 2005, in which you were informed of the possibility that procedures, which had not been adopted at that time, could ask for multiple nominees and were requested to submit three names.
To date, the Board has not received any applications from individuals stating that they are the nominee or alternate nominee of CRC, nor a letter of endorsement from your organization. You attention to this matter would be appreciated. If it is more convenient for you, feel free to fax the information to me at (301) ***-****.
Sincerely,
George Margolies
Staff Director
Several weeks after applications were due, the board sent CRC this extra-special pretty-please-with-sugar-on-it.
October 3, 2005
Mrs. Michelle Turner
President, CRC
***** Drive
Silver Spring, Maryland
Dear Mrs. Turner:
With the close of the application period having passed for those interested in applying for the Citizens Advisory Committee for Family Life and Human Development, I note that the only application which the Board has received from the Citizens for Responsible Curriculum was the one you signed on behalf of Henrietta Brown, and faxed to the Board office on September 8th. However, as Board President O'Neill advised you in her letter of July 28, 2005, pursuant to the Board's resolution of July 27th (a copy of which was provided you with the letter), individuals who served on the committee previously are not eligible to serve on the reconstituted committee. My letter of September 8th to you also referenced the requirement that applicants not have served previously on the committee. Inasmuch as Ms. Brown previously served on the committee, she is not eligible for appointment per the language of the Board's resolution.
As both Mrs. O'Neill's and my earlier letters stated, the Board's resolution also calls for the organizations to submit a nominee and two alternate nominees who are otherwise qualified (i.e. are bona fide residents of Montgomery County and have not served on the committee previously). Given that the Board is not scheduled to makes appointments until its October 11th meeting, I am requesting again that CRC submit a nominee and two alternate nominees that are fully qualified for consideration by the Board of Education for appointment.
The language of the resolution clearly states that a seat on the committee has been reserved for CRC. Therefore, it will not be filled until such time as qualified nominees are submitted to the Board of Education. Thank you for your consideration.
Sincerely,
George Margolies
Staff Director
So, there we were, sitting in the board’s meeting room today, more than a month after the application deadline, and Mrs. O’Neill read a letter expressing the board’s intention for now. They’re going to give the CRC another two weeks.
This must be some kind of legal CYA, because everybody knows they have no intention of applying. It loses the county two weeks of time when we could have been working.
Statement by Patricia B. O’Neill
President, Board of Education
October 11, 2005
I want to thank the many residents and organizations of Montgomery County who submitted applications for membership on the 15-member Citizens Advisory Committee on Family Life and Human Development. More than 180 individuals applied for the committee, and their willingness to serve reflects well on the citizens of our community and their support of our public school system. Among the applicants are many experienced and knowledgeable individuals who have expertise in the fields of health, education, public policy, and related areas, and many are parents of students in our school system.
These applications have been thoroughly reviewed and considered by the Board of Education. Today, in closed session, the Board completed initial work to identify applicants to be appointed to the committee. Representatives of four organizations, seven community members at large, and one high school student member have been tentatively identified, as has a potential committee chair. The Board plans to take public action to appoint the committee on October 24.
The Board had planned to take final action today, but we are still awaiting qualified nominations from three organizations that have reserved membership on the committee: Citizens for Responsible Curriculum (CRC), Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays (PFOX), and the Montgomery County Region of the Maryland Association of Student Councils (MCR). The organizations were notified prior to today that the names of qualified nominees with two alternates have not yet been submitted.
In action on July 27, 2005, the Board of Education directed that the reconstituted Citizens Advisory Committee be comprised of 15 county residents who had not previously served on the committee including eight members at large, one of whom is to be a high school student; and seven representatives of organizations, including one representative each for CRC, PFOX, and MCR. All organizations were asked to submit one nominee and two alternate nominees.
The committee, which will serve in an advisory capacity to the Board of Education and superintendent, is to consult with professional educators within the school system in the course of their developing, implementing, and evaluating the family life and human development program, consistent with the Code of Maryland Regulations (COMAR).
Let me spell it out to you. The CRC wants to sue. They want to waste the people's money, they want to waste everybody's time, they want to drag this thing on in the boardroom and then go to court and drag it out there.
They are not going to follow the application procedures. Then, when the Board assembles the committee and leaves their seats vacant, they can sue and say that they were "promised" membership in their legal agreement. They can say the school board violated the agreement by starting the committee without them.
Even though the problem is really that they have never applied.
They need to submit names of three people from each group who live in the county and have never served on the committee before. We did it, according to the board over 180 people managed to apply for this 15-person committee, but CRC just can’t manage to get their homework turned in.
Why would they do that?
Because they know they'll never win by playing fair. They know that if there's an honest discussion, they'll lose it. This is the only chance they have.
posted by JimK at 9:02 PM
31 Comments:
Hopefully, the CRC will never cooperate with the oxymoronic idea that the school board should select who CRC's "representative" will be. If the board would stop playing Machiavellian games, real work could begin.
On a more positive note, I hope everyone listens to Focus on the Family tomorrow and Thursday. Esteemed psychologist Jame Dobson will be discussing why he supports the nomination of Harriett Miers to the Supreme Court. He's throwing in with Democratic legislator Harry Reid.
Nice try, changing the subject. I am finding the Republican implosion quite interesting myself, but this post is about all the attempts that the board of education has made to remind CRC that there are rules, and I'd like to see people here discuss the topic at hand.
Though I can see why you'd want to change the subject. This is looking pretty bad.
JimK
Disclaimer: I speak on behalf of myself. And only myself.
Hopefully, the CRC will never cooperate and will be forcibly removed from the committee due to their prolonged inability to nominate 3 people.
I mean, can they not find 3 people who can express their views?
Can we not move on with this?
Or do they have to put off making a new curriculum?
The REAL corruption lies in that the CRC can abuse their privilege like this.
It's a sad day for democracy.
Anon, you are right.in fact, I think CRC and PFOX should just write the whole curriculum - because they should run the show, not the BOE. Why should CRC follow the Board rules? As to games- it is surely CRC and PFOX playing games with the education of our kids.
Andrea
How difficult can it be for these people to put together three nominees so the Board can select a representative?
And if they think stooping so low as to sue the school system over not wanting to suggest three reps and settle for one like everybody else is going to win them any converts, they're wrong.
Ma
The settlement agreement (http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/info/pdf/BoardResolution&Settlement.pdf)guarantees CRC & PFOX one rep each on the new CAC, and I'm sure they'll get it, as long as they follow the rules. The settlement agreement does *not* guarantee them the right to select which of their members will be their CAC rep, but instead it says:
"the BOEMCPS agrees that the newly-constituted CAC...will include one representative of PFOX and one representative of CRC, to be selected by the Board in accordance with Section C(2)(a)(3) of Board Policy BMA, provided such representatives are Montgomery County residents and are otherwise qualified and able to serve on the committee.
It seems to me the folks making the stink about "the rules" are the CRC/PFOXers. They are the ones who expect a guaranteed seat on the CAC, AND different rules from everybody else who wants a seat on it.
Aunt Bea
The purpose of the "rule" is to allow the board to pretend to be even-handed while at the same time control we "advice" they get. It's a hypocritical board. They've abused the trust of the public.
On top of that, CRC is entitled to special consideration as an aggrieved party which the board has already been proven to have anymosity toward. This board will suffer the same fate as the school board in Milton, NY that tried something similar and were thrown out by the voters.
There are rules for applying for the CAC so that the school board can monitor and control the process. They were elected by the public to make sure that Montgomery County has top quality schools. Citizen input is allowed in curriculum development, but not citizen control -- I can't think of any class where I'd want people off the street to decide everything that should be taught. --Or worse than people off the street, people assigned by some federal judge. None of them educators, none of them specialists in sexual behavior... No, that's not who should run things in this situation.
CRC and PFOX won the lawsuit, and they won certain privileges in the settlement agreement. And those privileges are being granted by the board. That never meant that the board would just hand the whole process over to them, though. And remember, the CRC and PFOX have almost no public support in this county, nobody's going to throw out the board over this.
JimK
"There are rules for applying for the CAC so that the school board can monitor and control the process. They were elected by the public to make sure that Montgomery County has top quality schools."
The time for them to "monitor and control" the process was when the curriculum draft is written. COMAR requires them to then submit the finished product to the community for their input.
"Citizen input is allowed in curriculum development, but not citizen control --"
The board isn't "allowing" citizen input, they're complying with state law.
There's a word for "citizen control". It's democracy. It's as inevitable as the sunrise. The board can't stop it.
"I can't think of any class where I'd want people off the street to decide everything that should be taught. --Or worse than people off the street, people assigned by some federal judge. None of them educators, none of them specialists in sexual behavior... No, that's not who should run things in this situation."
Peter Spriggs knowledge in this area exceeds any of the yokels on the school board. Meanwhile, the board has reserved two seats for students. Are they "specialists in sexual behavior?" I'm sure that neither kid will be churched- they'll go for the most liberal kids they can find. They'll have six candidates to assure that.
"CRC and PFOX won the lawsuit, and they won certain privileges in the settlement agreement. And those privileges are being granted by the board. That never meant that the board would just hand the whole process over to them, though."
Allowing two representatives on an advisory committee is hardly handing over the process. Your language is that of an extremist.
"And remember, the CRC and PFOX have almost no public support in this county, nobody's going to throw out the board over this."
This remains to be seen. It's interesting that attendance at their forum exceeded attendance at yours. A school board race of Peter Spriggs or Michelle Turner vs Jim Kennedy would be a dream come true. Who do you think would win? Get real.
Any liberal candidates for elected office in Montgomery County would do about as well in an election here as John Kerry did -- they'd win by a margin of 2 to 1.
You get real.
Ma
There is a word for what is done in schools: it's "education." It is not democratic. We elect a school board to see that it's done professionally, and they see that high standards are enforced for staff, including teachers. To think that curricula should be developed by majority rule in the community at large is ridiculous.
Peter Sprigg's obsession with the topic of homosexuality probably exceeds anyone's that I know of, who has been nominated for the committee. His fascination has led him to be an expert in misinformation, he has memorized dozens of fake-facts and the results of many fake-science articles. He is a political agent, not an expert in sexuality of any sort.
And of course I didn't mean that putting their two people on the committee meant "handing over the process." They won the lawsuit, they get that. I mean, for instance, the fact that the school board is allowing these radical groups to stall the entire curriculum development process, right now, while we all wait for something we know isn't going to come.
And dude, I'm not running for any school board, I promise you that -- for one thing, I'd have to cut my hair! I might be forced to wear a tie to work... Nah, not me.
Finally, forum attendance is not much of a measure, it is always easier to drum up a crowd against something than in support of it. Every measure shows that they have no support in the community. Not a lot of haters in Montgomery County. Some, not many.
JimK
Anon,
Would you like to know why the students get a voice?
Would you? Would you?
BECAUSE WE TOOK THE DAMN CLASS WITH THE CURRICULUM AND WE KNOW WHAT THEY TEACH!
We, the students, have the best view of how the curriculum has been taught and how effective it has been.
Unfortunately not very. I am grieved to say that I know of too many teens that engage in risky sexual activities.
Actually, the number of them who do drugs exceeds any other risky activity.
You want to know something absurd?
There's a few spots right outside my school where kids come to smoke.
You know what the school does? NOTHING!
A security guard told me, even though they can bust them, the school doesn't like it because of "bad publicity".
If I had any say on the primary issue in this country, it would be putting an end to drugs. Yeah.
Dear Anon,
You say that “Peter Sprigg’s knowledge in this area [homosexuality] exceeds any of the yokels on the school board.” Where did Mr. Sprigg get his professional training in this area? What research has he done?
According to James Dobson’s Family Research Council, where Mr. Sprigg serves as Vice President for Policy, his academic training is in political science, economics, and divinity. Here is how the Family Research Council describes his experience: “Mr. Sprigg is an ordained minister in the American Baptist Churches USA. Before coming to FRC, he served as pastor of Clifton Park Center Baptist Church in Clifton Park, N.Y. Mr. Sprigg previously served for ten years as a professional actor and unit leader in Covenant Players, an international Christian drama ministry based in California. His years in Covenant Players included service in the United States, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.”
Peter Sprigg’s' "knowledge" about homosexuality is in direct conflict with the wisdom of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association,the American Psychological Association, and every other mainstream American medical and mental health organization.
I do not know whether, if CRC and PFOX comply with the rules, the Board would appoint Peter Sprigg to the CAC. But to say that his “knowledge” is essential to a discussion of homosexuality is like saying that Ptolemy's “knowledge” about the sun revolving around the earth is essential to a discussion of astronomy.
David Fishback
In repsonse to the CRCniks who think Michelle and Retta represent anything more than a fringe minority in the county, there's a column from David Ignatius in today's Post. This is an excerpt:
"Bush squandered this opportunity by falling into the trap that has snared the modern GOP -- of playing to the base rather than to the nation. The Republicans behave as if the country agrees with them on issues, when that demonstrably isn't so. The country doesn't agree about Social Security, doesn't agree about the ethical issues that were dramatized by the torment of Terri Schiavo, doesn't agree about abortion."
They can't bear it, so they get to whining and demanding special rights because they are "aggrieved." Sorry.
And one more thing about those eminent psychologists from the FRC and FoF -- it's very sad that not only are they scientifically and medically incompetent, like most Republicans with any authority these days, but they have obviously learned so little from the Scriptures they purportedly cherish so highly. I would agree with those (including the illustrious Mr. Jefferson) who say that the distilled words of (Rabbi) Jesus provide a pretty solid basis by which to live a good life. And there are many insights into human nature and right behavior in the Torah if one would just care to read closely and think. The Christian extremists do little of either.
david
I think you missed my point. Jim is the one that seems to think a citizen's advisory committee should only be composed of experts. Experts should be writing the thing. Citizens' reps should be commenting on the final.
Don't put words in my mouth, Anon. The district is going to write a curriculum. It will be reviewed by a citizens advisory committee, not composed of experts, but hopefully intelligent and committed people whose beliefs and values reflect those in the community. There will be some interaction, and perhaps changes come out of that, I don't know exactly how it will work. Nobody does.
I never said, and don't believe, that the citizens committee should be experts, and I don't take kindly to people lying about what I think. I applied, and not as an expert, but as a father and a person who cares about what is taught in my county.
JimK
Dear Anon,
I was responding to your specific statement that “Peter Sprigg’s knowledge in this area [homosexuality] exceeds any of the yokels on the school board.” Your assertion is, I believe, simply wrong and I provided some reasons why I believe your assertion is wrong.
David Fishback
David
Peter Spriggs is familiar with sex-ed curriculums nationwide and, as part of his job, looks at every study that comes down the pike. He has unique knowledge just from studying the issue on a daily basis.
Let's think for a second about the opinions of the mainstream scientific establishment and Ptolemy. At the time of Copernicus, the mainstream scientific establishment rejected his heliocentric ideas and cited Ptolemy. Science always has a few giants and a lot of Lilliputian followers. Doubly true in this day of research grants and political correctness.
By the way, a former Christian minister would tend to know quite a bit about homosexuality from trying to minister to these confused people. In counseling, you gain a great deal of understanding. This is probably true in many other fields as well. My kids, for example, have learned a lot more about other countries from missionaries who work with the common people and come back and share stories at church than they ever learned in these public schools. The evangelical community is a lot less provincial than society at large.
"Any liberal candidates for elected office in Montgomery County would do about as well in an election here as John Kerry did -- they'd win by a margin of 2 to 1.
You get real.
Ma"
John Kerry- wasn't he opposed to gay marriage? Oh, that's right, that's just what he said.
Well, it's like my dearly departed mother always (hiccup) said: When it comes to Democrats and integrity, it's slim pickin's- might slim.
Otis the town drunk.
Anon,
My reference was to the voters of Montgomery County, not to Mr. Kerry or any of his positions. Sixty six percent of Montgomery County voters rejected the Bush ticket and all of its positions, including it's emphasis on misleading and medically inaccurate abstinence only health education funding.
But I understand when your arguments don't stand up you may need to change the subject.
Nice try!
And Otis, honey. You should google "hangover remedies." Feel better.
Ma
"Don't put words in my mouth, Anon."
Don't have to, Jim. They can read.
I lived with missionaries for awhile back in the 70's and 80's. Some were quite worldly, others, though they lived in foreign cultures, completely failed to allow any of those cultures to rub off. They were more constipated emotionally than had they never gone abroad, and anyone trying to learn from them a respect for others was doomed to failure.
I don't care how many curricula Sprigg has examined. He comes to this with an unscientific bias, driven by ignorance and fear which morphs into hate. Science is exemplified by an openness to facts and reality, and a willingness to amend a theory when new data appears. All the well-adjusted, happy, content, successful gay people in the world won't make a dent in his consciousness, because he simply assumes they are going to hell.
It is also a fact that since the creation of the concept of homosexuality by the Germans in the 1870s, medicine did view it as a disease until 1973. And guess what? The psychoanalytic and religious perspective had no impact on improving the lives of real people. Physicians admitted they were wrong. That's science. Not quoting a single line from a Bible and stating it as fact. Most doctors, when a treatment doesn't work, don't keep making the same mistake. They move on and try to do better.
"I lived with missionaries for awhile back in the 70's and 80's. Some were quite worldly, others, though they lived in foreign cultures, completely failed to allow any of those cultures to rub off. They were more constipated emotionally than had they never gone abroad, and anyone trying to learn from them a respect for others was doomed to failure."
It is, as you imply, hard to generalize. I still would say the committed evangelical Christian who engages the world in order to share the gospel effectively gains a unique perspective not gained by the average couch potato in our society.
"I don't care how many curricula Sprigg has examined. He comes to this with an unscientific bias, driven by ignorance and fear which morphs into hate."
He's conversant in the arguments made by a significant portion of our society. For balance, they should make him chair of the advisory committee since they gave that post to a gay rights advocate last time.
Ignorance may be in the eye of the beholder but the Family Research Council shows no sign that they are afraid of or hate anyone. To say that defending a moral code is now the equivalent of hating or fearing those who violate that code is very adventurous rhetoric.
"Science is exemplified by an openness to facts and reality, and a willingness to amend a theory when new data appears."
What new data has appeared?
"All the well-adjusted, happy, content, successful gay people in the world"
Have you actually talked to many of these people? This is going a bit far.
" won't make a dent in his consciousness, because he simply assumes they are going to hell."
Well, Christianity is about obtaining mercy but it's not about pretending there was no need for mercy to begin with. That wouldn't be a fact.
"It is also a fact that since the creation of the concept of homosexuality by the Germans in the 1870s, medicine did view it as a disease until 1973. And guess what? The psychoanalytic and religious perspective had no impact on improving the lives of real people. Physicians admitted they were wrong. That's science. Not quoting a single line from a Bible and stating it as fact. Most doctors, when a treatment doesn't work, don't keep making the same mistake. They move on and try to do better."
The concept of homosexuality has appeared throughout history. Physicians weren't wrong- disordered sexual preference is a mental disease. Just because they don't think they can cure it doesn't mean it's not. It's an irrational desire to act against one's own interest.
There's more than one line that condemns the practice of homosexuality in the Bible. I know you're familiar with the Torah but the New Testament has some things to say too.
"...an irrational desire to act against one's own interest..."
Interesting turn of a phrase. It seems to me that heterosexual behavior meets that criterion as often as homosexual behavior does. Us straight guys do some stupid stuff sometimes...
JimK
Anon,
The religious texts you mentioned condemn homosexuality among other things including eating meat and dairy together, blending fibers, and eating pork, etc.
There are countless religious texts in this world. The Analects, the Five Classics, Bhagavad Gita, the Koran, the Talmud, Tao-te-ching, Upanishads, and the Veda are the religious books of the more major religions (in terms of numbers of followers). And there are countless more texts of less "popular" religions too.
None of these texts or the material in them belong in public school health classrooms.
Including any one of them in health class would open Pandora's box so that we would have to let all of them in. Public schools must stick to teaching scientific findings in health classes and leave religion out of them as required by the Bill of Rights.
MCPS Mom
Anon,
"I lived with missionaries for awhile back in the 70's and 80's. Some were quite worldly, others, though they lived in foreign cultures, completely failed to allow any of those cultures to rub off. They were more constipated emotionally than had they never gone abroad, and anyone trying to learn from them a respect for others was doomed to failure."
It is, as you imply, hard to generalize. I still would say the committed evangelical Christian who engages the world in order to share the gospel effectively gains a unique perspective not gained by the average couch potato in our society.
>> The key word is "committed." Many people call themselves committed, but they don't act like it. I've seen too many Christians (and Jews, too) who consider themselves very religious who I find to be pretty inadequate spiritual beings. <<
"I don't care how many curricula Sprigg has examined. He comes to this with an unscientific bias, driven by ignorance and fear which morphs into hate."
He's conversant in the arguments made by a significant portion of our society. For balance, they should make him chair of the advisory committee since they gave that post to a gay rights advocate last time.
Ignorance may be in the eye of the beholder but the Family Research Council shows no sign that they are afraid of or hate anyone. To say that defending a moral code is now the equivalent of hating or fearing those who violate that code is very adventurous rhetoric.
>> We will have to disagree about this and leave it there. I believe Sprigg may be conversant in the arguments, but I don't believe he understands them. I also don't agree that the FRC doesn't hate or fear gays; I feel their hatred and fear is profound. I don't believe anyone would make his career as a "professional anti-gay" unless he profoundly hated or feared his target. And no, he has no right to be chair as far as balance is concerned, because that isn't the tale of the county. If we were evenly divided, then the chair could rotate. But Sprigg is in the minority, the significant minority, so he has no business being the chair.
But as I've said, having him on the CAC wouldn't bother me in the least if I were also on the committee. <<
"Science is exemplified by an openness to facts and reality, and a willingness to amend a theory when new data appears."
What new data has appeared?
>> What specifically are you referring to? Science does that all the time. Pick up any issue of Science or Nature and you have new insights, new data. Take your pick -- the H5N1 genome, dark energy, Bose-Einstein condensates, endocrine disruptors, the infectious etiology of peptic ulcers -- it's int he nature of science. That doesn't mean there isn't often institutional resistance, but progress occurs and can't be stopped indefinitely. <<
"All the well-adjusted, happy, content, successful gay people in the world"
Have you actually talked to many of these people? This is going a bit far.
>> Yes. Very many. Who are not well content? Those who are targets in many areas of the country, those who are discriminated against in employment. Those who are married and closeted and have to live with the misery of being split emotionally in two. All the trans persons who fear rejection by family and friends. But for those who are out and self-confident, they're in much better emotional shape than those straights who live in ignorance and fear. <<
" won't make a dent in his consciousness, because he simply assumes they are going to hell."
Well, Christianity is about obtaining mercy but it's not about pretending there was no need for mercy to begin with. That wouldn't be a fact.
>> I don't know how to respond to that, except to say that Christian fundamentalists show no mercy, compassion or empathy in my experience. <<
"It is also a fact that since the creation of the concept of homosexuality by the Germans in the 1870s, medicine did view it as a disease until 1973. And guess what? The psychoanalytic and religious perspective had no impact on improving the lives of real people. Physicians admitted they were wrong. That's science. Not quoting a single line from a Bible and stating it as fact. Most doctors, when a treatment doesn't work, don't keep making the same mistake. They move on and try to do better."
The concept of homosexuality has appeared throughout history. Physicians weren't wrong- disordered sexual preference is a mental disease. Just because they don't think they can cure it doesn't mean it's not. It's an irrational desire to act against one's own interest.
There's more than one line that condemns the practice of homosexuality in the Bible. I know you're familiar with the Torah but the New Testament has some things to say too.
>> I may not have been clear. The current concept of homosexuality is a German construct. Of course, there has been same-sex behavior throughout history, and different cultures have viewed it differently.
All I ever hear regarding Biblical condemnation is the line from Leviticus, and the other Jewish references are ignored, such as David and Jonathan. But there is nothing attributed to Jesus, which is what is critical. Jesus was a sexual radical, asking people to leave their spouses, hanging with women, even prostitutes. Not the typical FRC crowd. That Paul may have been a hater doesn't surprise me; much of the intolerance in subsequent Christian history derives from his words. <<
Dana
You did it again. Last week, you wrote a post so long and with so many things that I wanted to respond to, that I keep putting it off and never did get around to it. And here's another one. You're overwhelming me. Early next week, I'd like to focus on this:
"All I ever hear regarding Biblical condemnation is the line from Leviticus, and the other Jewish references are ignored, such as David and Jonathan. But there is nothing attributed to Jesus, which is what is critical. Jesus was a sexual radical, asking people to leave their spouses, hanging with women, even prostitutes. Not the typical FRC crowd. That Paul may have been a hater doesn't surprise me; much of the intolerance in subsequent Christian history derives from his words. <<"
Lightning
Hope Jim doesn't mind if we turn this into a small Bible study group. He's expressed some of the same ideas about the biblical position on homosexuality as you, in the past.
Oops! I didn't sign at the end.
Lightning
Bible study might belong in a class on "comparative religions" in MCPS where other religious texts are similarly studied. Otherwise it belongs in church.
Ma
or a blog
JimK
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