Shelby Knox: The Movie and the Person
Last night NARAL Pro-Choice Maryland showed the movie The Education of Shelby Knox in Silver Spring, and Shelby Knox herself made an appearance. I couldn't go, but we got reports from some Teach the Facts members -- they found the evening very inspirational.
Shelby, you may or may not know, was a teenager in Lubbock, Texas, who fought for comprehensive sex education in her school. The movie, which has been on network television but as I recall was "not shown" in the Washington, DC, area, follows her story as a plucky kid who won't take no for an answer and won't give in to the holier-than-thou hometown hypocrites.
Here, I'll let some Teach the Facts members tell you about it. First, CillyGoose gives us the full report:
AndreaR was there, too (as were a number of other TTF members). She has a little bit more to add to the account.
From the TTF members I've talked to, it does sound like this was a cool presentation, I wish I could have gone. The battle we fight here in Montgomery County is really nothing, if you think about it, compared to what they're up against in a place like Lubbock. As Andrea pointed out, here we have the majority of people agreeing that the schools should have a comprehensive and inclusive sex education program, and our problem is simply mobilizing the support. For Shelby, the fight was uphill all the way, but that didn't discourage her.
Shelby, you may or may not know, was a teenager in Lubbock, Texas, who fought for comprehensive sex education in her school. The movie, which has been on network television but as I recall was "not shown" in the Washington, DC, area, follows her story as a plucky kid who won't take no for an answer and won't give in to the holier-than-thou hometown hypocrites.
Here, I'll let some Teach the Facts members tell you about it. First, CillyGoose gives us the full report:
Check out her website: http://www.incite-pictures.com/shelbyknox/film.html Read about the film at the website.
Notes from the movie:
The film began with two quotes written by Shelby about her education in Lubbock Texas.
She said she learned two things in Lubbock:
1. God loves you and you will burn in hell.
2. Sex is filthy and you should save it for marriage.
The film follows Shelby through high school, from her beginning as a conservative Christian in Lubbock to her evolution as an activist Democrat in Austin. She's a pistol of a girl who argues her values very well, especially as she matures and gains more knowledge. Early in the film, Shelby took a virginity pledge with her parents present. She took part in Ed Ainsworth's abstinence classes from a program he teaches called True Love Waits. He teaches that STDs are spread by skin to skin contact so condoms offer NO protection. Ed tells the class he had sex the first time on X date, in Room XYZ at the ABC Hotel--it was his wedding night. (Cute huh? Puke!) Kids are swaying to the music, singing along, and lining up to take the virginity pledge.
Shelby is a devout Christian and enjoys school and voice lessons. She also is not one to back down from a discussion so she joins the Lubbock Youth Commission (LYC), which is a group of students who lobby elected officials for various things for kids-- clubhouses, ballfields, that type of thing. Shelby steers the group toward lobbying for comprehensive sex ed due to the high number of pregnant girls at her school. She seems to feel sorry for the girls and says something like, "There are so many, they just blend in and disappear." She runs for a leadership position on the LYC and loses, has a good cry but congratulates the winner, even though she can't stand him.
There's nothing for teens to do in Lubbock besides having sex. Shelby tells about a game the guys play where they assign girls numbers. The higher the number the more desirable the girl is. Easy girls get low numbers and pledged virgins get high numbers. The better looking the girl is, the higher the number too; there are several factors in computing the numbers. Then the guys try to date and ... have sex with ... [Ed.] as many 10's as they can.
As Shelby got more into working to implement a comprehensive sex education program in the public schools (there is abstinence only in Lubbock schools), she meets some gay kids and then thinks about joining forces with them to try to get a Gay Straight Alliance into the public schools. She goes to Ed (Ainsworth, the pledge dude and her minister, I presume) to discuss gays, sex, and sin. Ed tells her not all kids have the benefit of "the right family" or "the right church" to support them to make the "right choices." Shelby can't comprehend why God would allow people to be gay only to then send them to hell. She talks to her parents about the gay issue too and cries. When her Mom asks Shelby to name the most important things in her life she answers God, family, country, in that order. Mom, and especially Dad is relieved to see their little girl hasn't been completely corrupted. She still knows the most important things in life.
Shelby goes to talk to a Mr. Gerwig of the Family Traditions Coalition to see if he can help her get somewhere with the school board (the LYC wasn't getting very far). Gerwig tells Shelby that the school board members are in office because, "I put them there." ... Shelby then asks him about comprehensive sex ed and he gives her an earful of the usual religious crap. She stands her ground arguing her compassionate understanding of religion with the man -- a sight to behold. Then the film jumps to a BOE meeting and sure enough, they are starting the meeting with a prayer that ends "in Jesus's name we pray. Amen" They hear the kids and grown ups testify about the need for comprehensive sex ed and of course, they decide to stick with abstinence only.
At some point Rev. Phelps and his GOD HATES FAGS group show up to protest the GSA group in Lubbock. Shelby ends up getting her mother to join her protesting the protesters together with Shelby's new gay friends who want to start a GSA but have to sue to get the school system to agree. Shelby talks to her parents who are not very pleased with the turn her activism is taking. They are both conservative Republicans. Shelby resigns from the Lubbock Youth Commission when that group decides to no longer work toward trying to bring comprehensive sex ed to the public schools. They'd rather avoid controversy especially now that Shelby has begun to also advocate for the gay kids.
There's no real resolution. The film ends with Shelby going off to college. Oh yes, and the school superintendent (who was an ass from beginning to end of the movie) was caught having an affair with a school employee in school during school hours. He lost his job and left town.
After the film was over, there was a question and answer session with Shelby Knox and TTF's very own Avi Edelman of the Blair HS GSA. We learned that the gay kids in Lubbock lost their GSA lawsuit (on some technicality) and younger teens are suing again. We also learned that that abstinence only is still taught in Lubbock Public Schools. Shelby's very happy to now reside in "the only sane part of Texas, Austin, the Democratic part."
AndreaR was there, too (as were a number of other TTF members). She has a little bit more to add to the account.
What was moving about the movie - seeing Shelby Knox grow and learn and seeing her family learn and support her (a lot of the time- not agree but support her ). I didn't realize that Shelby was a True Love pledge taker (early in the film, she takes the virginity until marriage pledge) and yet while still determined to keep that pledge and be a good Christian within the Southern Baptist movement- she would support comprehensive sex education and the rights of GLBTQ(I think this is the latest designation) students (which is later on in the film). She struggled with what she had been taught all her life and with her family's beliefs (Conservative, Republican, small town, Baptist) to do what she knew was right. She stood up against her church and her town and her school for what she knew was right. Near the end, her mom comes with her to march in support of the HS gay/straight alliance in a lawsuit- and also against the Fred Phelps nuts.
It was incredible to see a high school sophomore decide to take a strong stand in such an atmosphere-where there was not much support and a great deal of religious, community and political opposition. I would say the contrast to Montgomery County is that there is certainly a much smaller opposition percentage-wise but a lot of apathy among those who are on "our" side. When you don't have school board meetings starting with a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ or you don't have to worry that your business will be hurt by holding liberal views- we think things are going good- and we don't need to get involved.
Seeing and hearing Shelby in person was great- she travels every weekend now to events around the film but she is interning in DC this semester.
From the TTF members I've talked to, it does sound like this was a cool presentation, I wish I could have gone. The battle we fight here in Montgomery County is really nothing, if you think about it, compared to what they're up against in a place like Lubbock. As Andrea pointed out, here we have the majority of people agreeing that the schools should have a comprehensive and inclusive sex education program, and our problem is simply mobilizing the support. For Shelby, the fight was uphill all the way, but that didn't discourage her.
posted by JimK at 9:59 AM
52 Comments:
When Shelby began to make connections with the students who were trying to form the gay-straight alliance, we could see that Shelby was attracted to them as people- just people. She offered them accepting friendship and got the same in return.
One of the organizers of GAP talked about the physical violence that he was subjected to and said, "They seem to think I'm not hurt by the things they do, but it really hurts, it really does." Later, as they watched the Westboro group picketing the court house and singing a really filthy rendition of "God Hates America," Rene was shocked by the way the Phelps family had their young children (as young as 10 or 12) carrying signs saying "God Hates Fags." Rene, like many of us, had not really thought about the fact that there are people actively teaching young children to hate and teaching them the language of hate.
On the other hand, as Shelby told her mother, "When you protest these people, you look sane." And she's right.
Alot of evangelical Christians have been going to see a movie released last Friday which is filmed from an evangelical perspective. The lead role is played by an actor who is an outspoken advocate of the gay agenda. Here's an article from Crosswalk.com:
"The Controversy Over "The End of the Spear"
The controversy over the casting of actor Chad Allen in the lead role of the movie The End of the Spear continues to grow -- and rightfully so. The End of the Spear is a retelling of the story of the martyrdom of missionaries Nate Saint, Jim Elliot, Peter Fleming, Roger Youderian, and Ed McCully by Waodani tribesmen in Ecuador in 1956 -- and many Christians have been eagerly awaiting the film's release.
This is one of the classic narratives of Christian missions. Eventually, the widows of these five missionaries led the majority of the Waodani to faith in Christ, ending decades of tribal killings. Steve Saint, the son of Nate Saint, maintains a ministry among the Waodani even now, after having been "adopted" by Mincaye, the very tribesman who killed his father.
The story of the five missionary martyrs and their families has been recounted in several books and films -- most famously Elisabeth Elliot's two books, Shadow of the Almighty and Through Gates of Splendor. Generations of young evangelicals have drawn courage and inspiration from these testimonies, and the larger story of the evangelization of the Waodani people.
This account is a precious stewardship, as are the lives of all involved. I had the honor of sharing dinner with Steve Saint and Mincaye a few years ago during a Shepherd's Conference at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. Their testimony is one of the most powerful affirmations of the power of the Gospel I have ever heard. I was greatly moved by meeting with them and I had looked to the release of the film with great hope.
Thus, the release of The End of the Spear on January 20 has been met with much enthusiasm. The movie was produced by Every Tribe Entertainment and has been received well by critics. So, what is the controversy all about?
The actor chosen to play both Nate and Steve Saint in the movie is Chad Allen, an actor well known to American television viewers for his roles in St. Elsewhere, Our House, and Dr. Quinn: Medicine Woman. But Chad Allen is also known for something else -- his very public homosexual activism. As a matter of fact, he has been on the cover of The Advocate, the leading homosexual news magazine, at least three times. He also staged Terence McNally's play, Corpus Christi, which portrays Christ as a homosexual involved in a homoerotic dynamic with his disciples.
What were they thinking? Beyond this, Allen (whose real name is Chad Allen Lazzari) also speaks straightforwardly about his syncretistic faith, freely mixing elements of Christianity, Native American spirituality, Buddhism, etc. When I appeared with him on Larry King Live Tuesday night, I found him to be personally friendly and engaging, but I was not surprised to hear him speak of his own personal religion -- a religion that excludes God's commandments concerning sexuality. "I have a deep relationship with God of my understanding. It's very powerful, and it's taken its own shape and form. And I am very much at peace in the knowledge that in my heart God created this beautiful expression of my love," he told the CNN audience [see transcript].
Here's how Mr. Allen described his process of moral decision-making: "These days I judge all of my actions by my relationship with God of my understanding. It is a deep-founded, faith-based belief in God based upon the work that I've done growing up as a Catholic boy and then reaching out to Buddhism philosophy, to Hindu philosophy, to Native American beliefs and finally as I got through my course with addiction and alcoholism and finding a higher power that worked for me." That's not a convenient disclosure on national television just days before the film is released, and Mr. Allen's appearance offered yet another opportunity to witness his advocacy for homosexuality. He went so far as to suggest that his opportunity in this film represents a form of "bridge-building" between Christians and homosexuals: "You know, I made this movie with a group of conservative Christians who do not agree with my expression of sexuality. But we said to each other, I will walk with you accepting your differences, and we can create together. I will give you your space to respect you fully. They don't need to take away from my freedom, I don't need to take away from theirs. And I am so proud to have done that. That's the kind of bridge-building I think we can get to." What should we make of all this? Should Christians see the film, boycott the film, or what? Some thoughts:
First, Christians must have the cultural maturity to know that many of the most famous and influential producers of cultural materials, whether in literature, art, or entertainment, have been homosexuals. This does not mean that we cannot enjoy their music, art, or performances. Christians start from the presupposition that all humans are sinners, and that every artistic endeavor is marred by sin in both its conception and its demonstration.
Second, Christians must learn the discipline of cultural discernment based upon Christian truth. We must learn to engage the culture in a way that is both honest and missiological -- and we must work hard to develop a mind that brings all things under subjection to Christ, including our entertainment preferences and choices.
Third, we must avoid hypocrisy. We should not pick and choose recklessly as we condemn or praise without any obvious tie to biblical truth. We must not condemn publicly what we enjoy privately. We must not assert matters of taste as matters of principle.
Fourth, we must understand the nature of the art form and learn how to discriminate on the basis of an informed cultural understanding, not a knee-jerk reaction. Accordingly, we must understand that the very nature of acting, whether on stage or on screen, is based upon the ability of the actor to make the audience see the character portrayed, not the actor, in the performance.
That said, this last point is the real problem when it comes to Chad Allen. Every Tribe Entertainment has chosen an actor -- perhaps even the actor -- least likely to be able to make us forget him and see Nate Saint. Chad Allen's activism is what many audience members will see, not Nate and Steve Saint.
Christians loved the film Chariots of Fire, but the lead role of Eric Liddell was played by Ian Charleston, a gay man. Another great performance in that film was given by Sir John Gielgud, a homosexual man who was probably the greatest Shakespearean actor of the last century. Similarly, the role of Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings trilogy was played by Sir Ian McKellen, who has also been known as a homosexual activist. Yet, I was not aware of these identifications as I viewed these movies. Thus, the associations never crossed my mind.
Careful thinking is required here. We do not know what sexual sins or sins of other sorts may characterize so many of the actors, actresses, singers, music writers, authors, musicians, painters, sculptors, or directors we enjoy and appreciate. Christians are not called to conduct investigative hearings on such matters, and we begin with the assumption that all these, like ourselves, are sinners.
Furthermore, we are not required to enjoy or appreciate as artists only those who are Christians. Yet, we should learn to look for the connections between worldview and art that always underlie a work or performance.
So, what of The End of the Spear? Put bluntly, I believe that the makers of this movie made a very reckless decision in casting Chad Allen as Nate and Steve Saint. Given the publicity of Chad Allen's activism and the intensity of his mission to normalize homosexuality -- a mission clearly articulated on his Web site -- it is hard, if not impossible, to suspend belief and see him as a missionary martyr for the Gospel. The distance between Nate Saint and Chad Allen is just too great. This mistake is compounded by the fact that this activism is so well known and well documented -- it's what Chad Allen makes central to his own identity.
In learning cultural discernment, Christians must learn to make decisions about a movie like The End of the Spear. In this case, the problem was unnecessary. This controversy is over a member of the cast, not the foundational story or the larger shape of the project. It could -- and should -- have been so easily avoided.
There is an even bigger and more important issue, of course. How will this film deal with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the message that took the missionaries to Ecuador and transformed the Waodani?
GOOD BLOGS FOR CONTINUED THINKING: Sharper Iron, Contend 4 the Faith, Challies, Pensees, Musings From the Two Shed Gomer, Reformed Baptist Thinker, Between Two Worlds.
___________________________________________________
R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. For more articles and resources by Dr. Mohler, and for information on The Albert Mohler Program, a daily national radio program broadcast on the Salem Radio Network, go to www.albertmohler.com. For information on The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, go to www.sbts.edu. Send feedback to mail@albertmohler.com.
See also the most recent entries on Dr. Mohler's Blog."
I saw much of Rev. Mohler's appearance on Larry King. He seems to miss the point that religion at its best promotes peace and love. I take it that that is the point of End of the Spear, which I am looking forward to seeing.
Rev. Mohler's belief is that God condemns homosexuality and that is the end of the discussion. If one is a biblical literalist, then that has to be the conclusion to draw (at least with respect to gay men; I am not aware of any reference in either the Old or New Testaments to lesbians). But since virtually no one actually takes ever word in the Bible as literal truth -- to do so, for example, would require, for example, advocating capital punishment for adulterers -- then most of us (99.999%) have to use the good sense that, hopefully, God gave us to figure out what is godly and what is not godly. (An alternative is to let someone else do the work for us. Many religious leaders seek to do that, but in the end I believe that we need to look to our own consciences.)
What standard do we use for figuring that out? Scripture certainly can be useful, but it is not the end of the analysis. Variations on the Golden Rule certainly help. One Jewish answer to the question of what God requires of us -- to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God -- is also useful. Dr. King's approach was to teach that what elevates humanity is godly. If we seek to extend happiness in the world, happiness that is in concert with others and not at their expense, then we act in a godly manner. All of us could come up with a multitude of formulations. And we should.
Does that mean that we are "moral relativists"? No, it means that we use freedom to seek to make the world a better place. Some are so afraid of freedom that they assert things that, down deep, they may know or suspect are not true in order to maintain social order. Or they may convince themselves that some things -- like committed, monogamous same sex relationships -- are so risky to the social order that they will deny happiness to people in the name of social stability. As the story so movingly told in Brokeback Mountain (which Rev. Mohler said on Larry King that he had not seen and would not see) shows how such an effort for social stability creates less, not more, stability; less, not more, happiness; and more, not less, tragedy and heartbreak.
Freedom is not always easy. But slavish following of doctrine is often far more dangerous.
"Last night NARAL Pro-Choice Maryland"
These are evil people supporting the murder of innocent children.
"a plucky kid who won't take no for an answer and won't give in to the holier-than-thou hometown hypocrites."
Where she lives, the community clearly prefers ab-only sex-ed. Are you saying that there is a basic human right that supercedes the democratic will? If so, why wouldn't TTF support the elimination of the opt-out policy in MCPS? If so, should the state require private-schooled and home-schooled children to attend comprehensive sex-ed classes? How plucky is TTF?
"She said she learned two things in Lubbock:
1. God loves you and you will burn in hell.
2. Sex is filthy and you should save it for marriage."
I think you later say that Knox is claiming to still be a Christian believer. If she says this, it makes me think she never was because both statements are heretical to orthodox Protestant Christianity.
"Early in the film, Shelby took a virginity pledge with her parents present. She took part in Ed Ainsworth's abstinence classes from a program he teaches called True Love Waits. He teaches that STDs are spread by skin to skin contact so condoms offer NO protection. Ed tells the class he had sex the first time on X date, in Room XYZ at the ABC Hotel--it was his wedding night. (Cute huh? Puke!) Kids are swaying to the music, singing along, and lining up to take the virginity pledge."
Abstinence programs aren't necessarily incompatible with comprehensive sex-ed but Cilly here seems contemptuous of the whole idea of encouraging abstinence. If they sing songs and joke and celebrate to boost morale, what could be the objection? Your attitude here seems hateful.
"She runs for a leadership position on the LYC and loses, has a good cry but congratulates the winner, even though she can't stand him."
Is there more here than you're disclosing or does she just hate everybody who disagrees with her?
"There's nothing for teens to do in Lubbock besides having sex."
This is a ridiculous statement. So they should get the kids ready for the only wholesome activity available- promiscuity.
Isn't there sports, cars, music, movies, videogames? How about getting a motorbike and chasing jackrabbits across the plains? Driving out and seeing the aliens in Marfa? Trying to make the best Armadillo Chili stew in the county? Heck, I bet there's even plays and church services. And Mac Davis and Buddy Holly must have museums.
"Shelby tells about a game the guys play where they assign girls numbers. The higher the number the more desirable the girl is. Easy girls get low numbers and pledged virgins get high numbers. The better looking the girl is, the higher the number too; there are several factors in computing the numbers. Then the guys try to date and ... have sex with ... [Ed.] as many 10's as they can."
Did anyone ask if she talked to her pastor about this? The church seems to have a lot of influence there.
"As Shelby got more into working to implement a comprehensive sex education program in the public schools (there is abstinence only in Lubbock schools), she meets some gay kids and then thinks about joining forces with them to try to get a Gay Straight Alliance into the public schools."
Yeah, makes sense to me. Were these gays out of the closet in this opressive environment? If so, was it really that oppressive? If not, how did she come across them? Any details?
"She goes to Ed (Ainsworth, the pledge dude and her minister, I presume) to discuss gays, sex, and sin. Ed tells her not all kids have the benefit of "the right family" or "the right church" to support them to make the "right choices.""
Sounds like he was telling the truth.
"Shelby can't comprehend why God would allow people to be gay only to then send them to hell."
So sinning is something God's responsible for because he allows it. Again, it doesn't sound like she ever really was a Christian believer.
"Shelby then asks him about comprehensive sex ed and he gives her an earful of the usual religious crap."
Imagine that, a pastor giving someone "an earful" of "religious crap".
"She stands her ground arguing her compassionate understanding of religion with the man -- a sight to behold."
What's so compassionate about enabling kids to destroy their lives?
"Then the film jumps to a BOE meeting and sure enough, they are starting the meeting with a prayer that ends "in Jesus's name we pray. Amen""
This actually happens in the U.S. Congress, too. I used to know one of the guys who served as Senate pastor and opened the session with a prayer every day.
"They hear the kids and grown ups testify about the need for comprehensive sex ed and of course, they decide to stick with abstinence only."
So what. They heard the testimony and disagreed. They're elected and obligated to consider the wishes of their constituents.
"At some point Rev. Phelps and his GOD HATES FAGS group show up to protest the GSA group in Lubbock."
Any idea what the local church did when these nasty people showed up? At least, the one Shelby and her Mom belonged to?
"They'd rather avoid controversy especially now that Shelby has begun to also advocate for the gay kids."
It really made no sense to tie the two issues together. The group was right.
"Oh yes, and the school superintendent (who was an ass from beginning to end of the movie) was caught having an affair with a school employee in school during school hours. He lost his job and left town."
Wow, shocking. How about the gay students? What happened to them?
"We learned that the gay kids in Lubbock lost their GSA lawsuit (on some technicality)"
You mean like MCPS and that little technicality, religious bigotry?
"and younger teens are suing again."
for what?
"We also learned that that abstinence only is still taught in Lubbock Public Schools."
After all Shelby went through. Is there no justice? Why does the majority always seem to win in America?
"Shelby's very happy to now reside in "the only sane part of Texas, Austin, the Democratic part.""
Well, I just hope there's something to do there. I mean, other than watch the bats.
"She stood up against her church and her town and her school for what she knew was right."
This reminds me of CRC. Did you ask Shelby if she considered trying to have the school board recalled?
"It was incredible to see a high school sophomore decide to take a strong stand in such an atmosphere-where there was not much support and a great deal of religious, community and political opposition."
How seldom have youth dissented. You guys can't see it but a tear is forming in the corner of my eye.
"I would say the contrast to Montgomery County is that there is certainly a much smaller opposition percentage-wise but a lot of apathy among those who are on "our" side."
Is that why Doug Duncan opposes gay marriage?
"When you don't have school board meetings starting with a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ"
TTF's idea of porn.
"or you don't have to worry that your business will be hurt by holding liberal views-"
Did that happen in Lubbock?
"we think things are going good- and we don't need to get involved."
Why do you think that? You've lost every round.
"Seeing and hearing Shelby in person was great- she travels every weekend now to events around the film but she is interning in DC this semester."
Oh boy. Let's have her address assemblies at all the local high schools on tips for fighting the school board.
"From the TTF members I've talked to, it does sound like this was a cool presentation, I wish I could have gone."
Well maybe you'd have the time if you didn't go see Brokeback Mountain three times every weekend.
"The battle we fight here in Montgomery County is really nothing, if you think about it, compared to what they're up against in a place like Lubbock. As Andrea pointed out, here we have the majority of people agreeing that the schools should have a comprehensive and inclusive sex education program,"
TTF fact check: there is no evidence supporting this fanciful notion
"and our problem is simply mobilizing the support."
That's a problem on both sides. Everybody wishes TTF and CRC would just go away.
I saw much of Rev. Mohler's appearance on Larry King. He seems to miss the point that religion at its best promotes peace and love. I take it that that is the point of End of the Spear, which I am looking forward to seeing.
Rev. Mohler's belief is that God condemns homosexuality and that is the end of the discussion. If one is a biblical literalist, then that has to be the conclusion to draw (at least with respect to gay men; I am not aware of any reference in either the Old or New Testaments to lesbians). But since virtually no one actually takes ever word in the Bible as literal truth -- to do so, for example, would require, for example, advocating capital punishment for adulterers -- then most of us (99.999%) have to use the good sense that, hopefully, God gave us to figure out what is godly and what is not godly. (An alternative is to let someone else do the work for us. Many religious leaders seek to do that, but in the end I believe that we need to look to our own consciences.)
What standard do we use for figuring that out? Scripture certainly can be useful, but it is not the end of the analysis. Variations on the Golden Rule certainly help. One Jewish answer to the question of what God requires of us -- to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God -- is also useful. Dr. King's approach was to teach that what elevates humanity is godly. If we seek to extend happiness in the world, happiness that is in concert with others and not at their expense, then we act in a godly manner. All of us could come up with a multitude of formulations. And we should.
Does that mean that we are "moral relativists"? No, it means that we use freedom to seek to make the world a better place. Some are so afraid of freedom that they assert things that, down deep, they may know or suspect are not true in order to maintain social order. Or they may convince themselves that some things -- like committed, monogamous same sex relationships -- are so risky to the social order that they will deny happiness to people in the name of social stability. As the story so movingly told in Brokeback Mountain (which Rev. Mohler said on Larry King that he had not seen and would not see) shows how such an effort for social stability creates less, not more, stability; less, not more, happiness; and more, not less, tragedy and heartbreak.
Freedom is not always easy. But slavish following of doctrine is often far more dangerous.
What? Are you trying to get the last word, David?
Looks like GLAAD, one of TTF's founding organizations, is still doing important work:
"NEW YORK (Jan. 24) - Is "American Idol" homophobic?
The Fox talent show elicited a response from the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLADD) after judges Simon Cowell and Randy Jackson made what the gay rights group deemed questionable comments on last week's premiere episode.
On Tuesday's show, seen by a Nielsen-chart topping 35.5 million viewers, Cowell told one male contestant to "wear a dress" and Jackson asked another, "are you a girl?"
"GLAAD is reaching out to the show's producers to discuss our concerns and the concerns of community members and allies who have contacted us about this matter," said Damon Romine, a spokesman for GLAAD, in a statement published on the group's Web site.
Romine was also quoted as saying, "The real offense here was in the producer's decision to add insult to injury by turning a contestant's gender expression into the butt of a joke.""
Anonymous said...
What? Are you trying to get the last word, David?
January 24, 2006 3:32 PM
Anonymous said...
Looks like GLAAD, one of TTF's founding organizations, is still doing important work
1. Sorry for the double posting. After I sent it, I did not see it on the blog, so I assumed I must have done something incorrectly. That is why it is there a second time.
2. There are NO founding organizations of TTF. TTF is the epitome of grassroots activity.
GLAAD, one of TTF's founding organizations
Anon, as long as this debate has been going on, I still cannot understand why people like you think it's ok to spread lies in the middle of a serious discussion. We provide a site here for discussion of a controversial issue, and unlike the other side, we don't kick people off our web site for holding a point of view that differs from ours.
Yet you come here and say things like this, which you know is totally false. Do you think this wins you points? Do you think this furthers the dialogue in some way? Do you think it makes you look bigger and better personally, even though you hide behind the anonymity of the Internet?
Some information for the casual reader: several members of TTF once attended a seminar given by GLAAD on dealing with the press. None of us have any experience with that, and it was very informative. TeachTheFacts.org is a self-organized group, some parents got together spontaneously to stand up for what we believe is right. GLAAD had nothing to do with it, nor did any of the other organizations that share our goals in this particular situation.
I wouldn't have to say that if these CRC guys didn't come over here and lie about it, and lie about it on their web site, in talks, and in the news.
JimK
GLAAD is still doing important work. I won't comment on that "American Idol" program, since I did not see it, but others have told me the comments were clearly bigoted and aimed to wound. Now, my sense of the program is that is the norm with regard to singing ability, but not to other aspects of the contestants. It sounds like he deserves an apology.
More bad news for NARAL and friends. Still looking for signs of a turned tide.:
"Supreme Court Nominee Gets Nod From Senate Panel
By JESSE J. HOLLAND, AP
WASHINGTON (Jan. 24) -- The Judiciary Committee favorably recommended Samuel Alito's Supreme Court nomination to the full Senate on a party-line vote Tuesday, moving the conservative jurist one step closer to joining the high court.
All 10 Republicans voted for Alito, while all eight Democrats voted against him. The partisan vote was almost preordained, with 15 of the 18 senators announcing their votes even before the committee's session began.
The full Senate expects to take a final vote on Alito's nomination before the end of the week. That vote is also expected to follow along party lines, with only one Democrat _ Ben Nelson of Nebraska _ coming out so far in support of Alito. Republicans hold the balance of power in the Senate 55-44, with one independent.
Senate Republicans say Alito is a good choice for the nation's highest court.
"Like America's founders, Judge Alito clearly believes in self-government, that the people and not judges should make law, and that judges have an important role but must know and stay in their proper place," said Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah."
anonymous said,GLAAD, one of TTF's founding organizations
Anon will next be saying Shelby Knox is gay.
freebird
"I wouldn't have to say that if these CRC guys didn't come over here and lie about it, and lie about it on their web site, in talks, and in the news."
OK, Jim, calm down. Can we just say they founded your propaganda approach?
anon said,Can we just say they founded your propaganda approach?
Oh anon..just quit lying.
freebird
"some parents got together spontaneously to stand up for what we believe is right"
Could we get a timeline for when this spontaneous combustion took place?
"anon said,Can we just say they founded your propaganda approach?
Oh anon..just quit lying.
freebird"
Free
How do you know what's true? Jim refused to disclose the organization for some months until CRC did some nifty detective work and found out the truth.
Jim has still not come clean on what advice they gave him or when that advice was received. It sounds to me like the advice they would have given is foundational to what TTF does day-to-day.
Gay advocacy groups have also communicated via TTF before. Who knows what else we don't know yet?
Anon, you're abusing our hospitality. We can talk to anybody we want, it doesn't mean they're our "founding organization." And we don't owe it to anybody to tell anything. We are very open here on the Internet, but if we have a meeting among ourselves it's our own business.
I don't mind if you challenge our reasoning or our facts, but to come over here and question our motives and our integrity is simply insulting.
The bad thing, it has become clear that you don't know the difference between making a reasoned argument and insulting somebody, and you have no respect for truth. And then you want to say what should be taught in the public schools.
JimK
Anon posed a lot of questions that only Shelby can answer. If you really want answers, maybe you can ask her at a future screening since you missed her local screening last night. Her website has the schedule of upcoming screenings. www.shelbyknox.org
Christine
Anon- says "everyone wishes TTF and CRC would go away". But anon what would you do then-who would entertain your circular illogic?. No one makes you come here- you do it freely- as if you think any of your comments will make us change our minds.
You can make us go away- or appear to- just don't come to our site or our blog. The internet is a big place- I am sure you can find something more to your liking.
Anon,
I read the letter Michelle Turner sent to the CAC's pediatricians, and I repeat my offer to debate her or anyone one of their crowd, especially Paul McHugh, on these issues. I'm sure Edgardo and Cathy would be happy to join me. You can let her know that her estimable Professor McHugh has never, to the best of my knowledge, defended his bigoted and scientifically inaccurate beliefs on gender identity with any physician. He presents his ignorance and hatred in lay or religious magazines, never in a peer-reviewed setting.
You know, the way lie detectors work is to measure reactions. Jim seems to have an extreme reaction every time this GLAAD briefing comes up. What did they tell you to do, Jim? Do you hesitate because the advice they gave has been so closely followed by you? The way you've publicly participated in this debate(and not just on this site)and become appointed to the CAC, makes it a legitimate question for public inquiry. It's just as legitimate as the rules for appointment to a committee or the source of addresses to use to inform parents about what's happening. Don't be so hypocritical- you've hardly stuck to substantive topics.
Also, why is it you are so concerned about being associated with GLAAD, when they share your goals? It reminds me of the "yellow" Dems you denounced yesterday.
Anon, you don't know anything about lie detectors, either.
I have concluded that you don't distinguish between lies and truth in the statements you make here, as long as you can "really show 'em." I don't care about you, and I don't care about TTF members who know better, but when you lie about us here I feel some obligation to correct the record, in case there is someone reading this who doesn't know what really happened.
GLAAD seems like a fine organization, and they share a common goal with us; we both want to see an end to discrmination and bigotry based on sexual orientation and gender identity. It's their main focus, but for us it just happens to be the topic of the curricula under discussion. Saying that GLAAD was a "founding organization of TTF" is a lie, a pure fabrication, and a stupid one at that.
JimK
anonymous said,You know, the way lie detectors work is to measure reactions.
HA HA Anon has now morphed from liar to truth detector.
freebird
AndreaR writes, in giving a summary of the movie,
she would support comprehensive sex education and the rights of GLBTQ(I think this is the latest designation)
Lemme see...G is for Gay, L is for Lesbian, B is for Bi-sexual, and T is for Transgendered.
Ok, but what does the Q stand for?...oh, that's right, Q is for Questioning. Ah, I see now...and R is for Recruitment. Yup, the program/agenda is all too clear.
Orin, do you think it would be possible to "recruit" someone to be gay?
You don't really thin that's how it works, do you? --I have come to expect somewhat more thoughtful comments from you than this.
JimK
And just who "recruits" among the 450 animal species that exhibit same-sex mating behaviors discussed by Dr. Wertsch at the Teachthefacts.org education forum last fall?
Christine
Actually, Orin, "Q" stands for "Queer" in most instances. The younger generation doesn't like being forced into categories that are too restrictive. Kids! And it is "transgender," not "transgendered."
I agree with Jim -- I really do expect more from you, and usually get it.
Jim K. writes,
Orin, do you think it would be possible to "recruit" someone to be gay?
Good question Jim...recall what AndreaR posted?
she would support comprehensive sex education and the rights of GLBTQ(I think this is the latest designation)
The "latest designation"? Sure, you bet. The last? Oh, I would not bet against that...
First, it was homosexual. Then it was Gay & Lesbian. Next were those that simply could not decide or discern their sexual orientation, the Bisexual. Still later, feeling a bit left out and wanting "in", the Transgendered were included as well. And now, we have "Q" added to this seemingly ever growing list of sexual variations...does the "Q" stand for Queer (and before anyone even throws a pebble please be advised that I know that this term is used in the Homosexual Community, and as such is a legitimate identifying term)?
No, "Q" stands for Questioning, that is, those that are as yet UNCERTAIN...hence Questioning.
Well, who will help/assist/advise/counsel those that find themselves "questioning"? It appears that given present trends in our culture, the groups that will attempt to position themselves as the "mainstream" and hence legitimate on this issue will be the GLBT component...and why not?
Another way of looking at this is that by adding Bisexual, Transgendered and Questioning to the list of sexual variations, Gays and Lesbians are able to (in marketing terms) increase their "market share". But why? Well, when Kinsey was "king" and just about anyone that wanted to be enlightened parroted exactly what he said and wrote, esp. the figure given that 10% of the population at any given time is Homosexual. Now we know that this figure was not just based on deeply flawed research, but was indeed false. The real figure is now generally recognized to be between 2 to 5% - half the original figure.
What better way then to appear to be a greater percentage of the population then to add additional groups to yours?
You don't really think that's how it works, do you?
Sometimes, yes, that is how it works...why else throw in "Questioning" to the mix of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered if not to use the ambiguity of someone at a critical point in their life that happens to be questioning?
How do I know this? Hummm, how can I put this? Ok, I have personal, direct, firsthand knowledge on this question, though that is all I will be able to say.
I have come to expect somewhat more thoughtful comments from you than this.
I am truly sorry that you are disappointed as I will admit that my previous entry was all too short and glib. I hope my extended explanation here will help a little, esp. given that I have opened myself up here with this explanation.
Orin, shame on you. You have seemed to have some sense in your writing- but I was never convinced. It is ridiculous to suggest that gay people recruit- and shows a lack of knowledge to suggest it. As for my R- it stands for my middle name. Unlike many of your compadres - because I do connect you with the anons who post- I am not ashamed to write under my own name. And to further show how you lack knowledge-I am not gay, I am married(oh, gosh, yes, to a man) for many years with children.
Of course, you have turned out to be one of those people who think the only people who can support the gay community must be gay. Funny, didn't you claim to have gay friends? But they must be the "good" gays-the ones who keep it quiet and hide it from others-won't find them marching, I guess. The whole "some of my best friends are" thing is the same bigotry hiding for you as it is for people who say that about any group. I know anyone who says there is a gay agenda- that means anything more than human rights(and that is not what you mean)- is a bigot. I repeat, shame on you(although I think shame is probably not part of your make-up)
"I feel some obligation to correct the record, in case there is someone really someone who doesn't know what happened."
None of us know what happened, Jim, because you won't tell us. They did give you key consulting advice at the time of your organizational inception, is that correct? You've closely followed this advice, is that correct? The consulting was provided free of charge, is that correct? Given the value of this advice, that would make them your largest donor at your inception, is that correct? Who introduced you to GLAAD? Was it Sharon Cox? What was their advice to you?
"Saying that GLAAD was a "founding organization of TTF" is a lie, a pure fabrication, and a stupid one at that."
When you stonewall, Jim, people have to make the best guess based on what facts there are. You're free to correct the record. But you need to explain certain suspicious things and not simply deny everything.
"There are NO founding organizations of TTF. TTF is the epitome of grassroots activity."
How do you know this, David? You're not on the executive board of TTF and you weren't involved from the beginning.
TTF gang members:
Your attack on Orin is hilarious. He's completely right. The new Q is a recruitment tactic.
Here's some other thoughts:
In the new gay recruitment movie, the cowboys wrassle around alot and act like regular guys. Alot of younger teens are like that- not way into girls yet but they do alot of horseplay with guys. Maybe they go and see this movie and think, hey, these guys are alot like me. Then, the next day they go to school and are told a lie, you can't choose whether to be gay. So, an opportunity arises and they try it. If the possibility mentioned in the recent pheronome study is correct, having this experience will led to conditioning and they'll begin to desire same-sex experiences more and more. Thus is recruited a homosexual.
And do homosexuals want to recruit more homosexuals? Come off it. Of course they do. They are basically not attracted to other gays but to heterosexuals. Their biggest fantasy is get some "hot" hetero guy to participate with them. Maybe if some gay guy is reading this, they could address this rather than the group that usually does.
I believe the topic under discussion here is "The Education of Shelby Knox."
There was a good-sized contingent of teens and parents from my church attending the screening on Monday night. The kids were really fired up about it. I met with their youth group adviser last night (we're on another church committee together) and he tells me that they are "champing at the bit" to get involved.
Two of the girls at the screening were in the 8th grade in White Oak Middle School last year and had their pilot classes pulled out from under them. Now they know that they can do something about it, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.
Hey guys
Check out the Metro section of today's Post and see the latest Democratic plan to avoid the gay marriage issue. They think the legislature has the power to suspend the judicial ruling until after the election so they can deal with it without any troublesome voter "disruption".
Wasn't this the school board's strategy for the sex-ed changes? Someone should warn the Dems that the strategy might backfire. Then, they'd have to get GLAAD to set up some statewide organization to help them.
Also, what's with these Dems? Don't they know the public supports the gay agenda? Just ask TTF.
Anon said They did give you key consulting advice at the time of your organizational inception, is that correct?
Anon, you need to take your meds and stop listening to the voices in your head. GLAAD presented a seminar for some of us nearly a year after our inception.
You are free to hold any conspiracy theory you like, as far as who "controls" TTF or whatever. Same for these guys talking about gays "recruiting" people. I guess in your world there are vast secret organizations plotting things. If you need to think that, well like I say you really should take your meds, but otherwise, please don't bother us with it, ok?
JimK
"They did give you key consulting advice at the time of your organizational inception, is that correct? You've closely followed this advice, is that correct? The consulting was provided free of charge, is that correct? Given the value of this advice, that would make them your largest donor at your inception, is that correct? Who introduced you to GLAAD? Was it Sharon Cox? What was their advice to you?"
Great questions, Anon. So what about the CRC's advisors?
Who introduced the GOP advisor to you? What was their advice to you? And what about Liberty Council and their mentor Jerry Falwell? Or your partners, PFOX and their mentor James Dobson and his buddies? They've been advising you since your inception, correct? And you've closely followed this advice, is that correct? And all that consulting was free of charge -- no wait, Liberty Council's legal advice and representation represents a contribution in kind, right? Given the value of this advice and representation, that would make them your largest donor at your inception, isn't that correct?
Hmmmm?
"There was a good-sized contingent of teens and parents from my church attending the screening on Monday night. The kids were really fired up about it. I met with their youth group adviser last night (we're on another church committee together) and he tells me that they are "champing at the bit" to get involved."
What kind of church do you go to, Tish?
"Two of the girls at the screening were in the 8th grade in White Oak Middle School last year and had their pilot classes pulled out from under them. Now they know that they can do something about it, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with."
What are they so upset about? Montgomery County isn't teaching a abstinence-only class at White Oak. They had sex-ed, didn't they? What was missing? A condom demonstration? What's with the youth adviser? Can't he set up a condom demonstration class for any kid who wants to come? Is this movie one that encourages kids to make problems where there are none?
"for these guys talking about gays "recruiting" people. I guess in your world there are vast secret organizations plotting things."
Could you get real, Jim? It's human nature that most people try to recruit people to their way of life. Gays are no exception. The organizations do too but for somewhat different reasons. We've all seen it. You need to get out of the house more.
"Who introduced the GOP advisor to you? What was their advice to you? And what about Liberty Council and their mentor Jerry Falwell? Or your partners, PFOX and their mentor James Dobson and his buddies? They've been advising you since your inception, correct? And you've closely followed this advice, is that correct? And all that consulting was free of charge -- no wait, Liberty Council's legal advice and representation represents a contribution in kind, right? Given the value of this advice and representation, that would make them your largest donor at your inception, isn't that correct?"
I'm not in CRC but I do know that at least a rep from Family Research Council was there at their formational meeting. No one ever denied it. They gave a card to a CRC officer and said call if they can be of assistance. I think the help they gave has been fully disclosed. Mostly, information on studies. PFOX was there. Don't think Liberty Council was around. I would have recognized Falwell or Dobson so I'd say they were absent. I'm sure any of the groups would have done what they could and CRC would call them whenever they felt it would be helpful. No one on this side is ashamed of their associates.
anonymous said,No one on this side is ashamed of their associates.
Bigots are never ashamed. Anon you know that already.
freebird
"And just who "recruits" among the 450 animal species that exhibit same-sex mating behaviors discussed by Dr. Wertsch at the Teachthefacts.org education forum last fall?"
Attraction to others happens. Animals don't have a moral capacity and will act on the available option. Humans do have a moral component and can choose to resist or indulge fleeting attraction. Their moral background is a factor in this choice and one that TTF seeks to undermine.
There are animals that eat other of their species too. Are we to conclude that you have no choice but to be a cannibal?
Animals and humans are different, much to the chagrin of the gay advocacy groups.
"Anon- says "everyone wishes TTF and CRC would go away". But anon what would you do then-who would entertain your circular illogic?. No one makes you come here- you do it freely- as if you think any of your comments will make us change our minds.
You can make us go away- or appear to- just don't come to our site or our blog. The internet is a big place- I am sure you can find something more to your liking."
Andrea:
I'm the only one that keeps this site interesting and if you don't stop dissing me, I'm going to hold out for a fat fee!
anonymous said, I'm the only one that keeps this site interesting and if you don't stop dissing me, I'm going to hold out for a fat fee!
Delusions work like the above. Anon just likes the attention that they do not get elsewhere. Tough you have to get on a blog to "feel the love."
freebird
Anonymous said:
And do homosexuals want to recruit more homosexuals? Come off it. Of course they do. They are basically not attracted to other gays but to heterosexuals. Their biggest fantasy is get some "hot" hetero guy to participate with them. Maybe if some gay guy is reading this, they could address this rather than the group that usually does.
Dearest anonymous,
You speak as though from knowledge (as though you were gay, which I don't think you are, or know and have spoken with a bunch of gay men, which I don't think you have). I think you are mistaken about what gay men like. I myself only find myself attracted to men who may reciprocate. It's my measure of gaydar.
Your comments that gay people recruit do not come across to me as opinions, but rather as bigotry. It's the old saw that they are trying to steal our children (I remember Anita Bryant making this claim in Florida years ago, and remember being warned in church about NAMBLA; part of what kept me in the closet for so long).
As someone who sponsors many events for GLSBTQ youth, by Q I mean queer, but to be honest, any youth who wants to come to an event and not disrupt is welcome.
I think people say questioning not because they really believe there is question, but because coming out is a process that takes time (for me it took about 25 years). Youth may need to describe themselves as questioning if that makes them feel more comfortable. it doesn';t mean their biological sexual orientation is in doubt, just their self-labelling. Certainly many gay men (I can't speak for women) go through a period in which they describe themselves as bisexual, and only later come out as gay (there's an old joke about "bi now, gay later).
If you're the anonymopus I'm thiniking of, send me an email (rrigbyjr@yahoo.com) and we can do dinner. I can share my experiences about choice, recruitment, the ex-gay movement with you, and I think you will be better informed.
Robert
Oh, Orin, I am so disappointed. Have you forgotten the history of the civil and human rights movement in America? Do you not remember it began with Roger Williams, continued through the abolitionists, was extended to Catholics and Jews, then women, finally (again) to African-Americans and now to LGBT folks, as well as other ethnicities and those with disabilities. Do you consider this all to have been detrimental to the US Constitution and the American dream?
The reality is that trans people jumpstarted the gay rights movement, but were then marginalized out of ignorance and fear. That we, being a small minority, would seek to join with a larger group is a very pragmatic decision. We are all sexual minorities, and many of those who are ignorant about sexuality just lump us together anyway, so why not? Look at Michelle Turner, whose only words on trans issues have been pure hatred. Has she ever met a trans person? Not me, for sure. But she thinks it's a convenient cudgel for recruiting and scare tactics. Unfortunately for her, much less so these days. I'd much rather have Felicity Huffman as my spokeswoman than Michelle Turner.
There are hundreds of different types of intersex conditions. It's a simplification to lump them all together. That gay women wanted to join gay men politically yet maintain their distinct identity is no surprise. That bisexuals and trans people wanted the same is no surprise, either. If kids today would rather be called queer, or to welcome those who are struggling with their identity, that's fine as well. Some groups add an "I" for the genitally intersexed, too.
What, pray tell, is so difficult for you to comprehend and respect?
And, I'm curious, what exactly did you mean by "How do I know this? Hummm, how can I put this? Ok, I have personal, direct, firsthand knowledge on this question, though that is all I will be able to say."
Here's an opportunity to work through these issues, with people who have had experiences that might be of assistance to you. But to simply state what you did, as if that's adequate evidence for your position, and then to refuse further information, is unacceptable from a debating point of view. From a personal perspective, however, I respect your choice.
Fallacious thinking:
"Do you not remember it began with Roger Williams, continued through the abolitionists, was extended to Catholics and Jews, then women, finally (again) to African-Americans and now to LGBT folks, as well as other ethnicities and those with disabilities."
Cogent argument, Anon.
Thanks.
I knew sophisticated readers like you would get it.
anonymous said,I knew sophisticated readers like you would get it.
Funny anon..did you brothers and sisters at CRC love you too?
freebird
I think Shelby Knox will be a name we hear in the future-for the work she does in civil and human rights and hopefully, for her political future.
"I think Shelby Knox will be a name we hear in the future-for the work she does in civil and human rights and hopefully, for her political future."
Oh, I'm sure. Sometimes they'll be schools all over America named after her and David Fishback.
As a parent and a Teacher in Lubbock I am glad we won this case. I don't want our schools to turn into Hawthorne Elementary in Madison, Wisconsin. Or schools like them. My child does not need to be intimidated into accepting the behavior of homosexuality. These people point to a successful person like Elton John (Lion King Song) and say to elementary children you can't be against the behavior of homosexuality if you like the Lion King movie ect. This is preditory and we don't point to some other successful person and say you also have to accept their alcoholism or some other deviant social behavior. To other schools: Don't fight this issue on moral grounds! Fight it by not allowing other groups to do similar things. Teach "Abstinence Only" like Texas does and you won't have to allow any groups to teach anything but. This is the job of the parents and what they want, after all they are their children to be raised in the way they see fit on issues of sex. Sorry deviant sexuals communities you are not a RACE. You already have equal rights. I can't believe you equate behavior to race. We will stop this anti family and children agenda!
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