Re-Defining and Re-Writing History in the Classroom
Our little skirmish over sex-ed might just be a practice scrimmage in the culture wars, if a recent development in Florida is any indication. Without attracting much attention in the press, that sunny state last month passed a law that outlawed "historical interpretation" in the public schools.
Common Dreams calls them on it this week:
Stop. Think about that. A law says that history shall be viewed as factual. You understand why they needed that?
Compare this to the debate over the press. Conservatives have repeated the phrase "liberal media" so many times that not only have they started to believe it, but the media have bent over backwards to prove that they're fair and balanced, often reporting lies as equivalant to truth in order to avoid the appearance of bias. At the same time, liberals looking at the mainstream media see little beyond a government propaganda outlet, talking heads reading administration press releases as if they were real reporting. Biased left? Biased right? You'll find people who say each of those things.
And that's when you're talking about things that happened yesterday, things that living people saw and can verify or criticize. Imagine the same complaints, only now you're talking about events that happened a hundred or two hundred years ago. You can't verify it, you can't deny it. If the textbook says he cut down the cherry tree, he cut down the cherry tree, and that's all there is to it.
And you can't meaningfully talk about history without some interpretation. You will call a group of people "fierce," or "peace-loving," you will emphasize their wild pagan rituals or their patient agricultural practices. Neither is wrong, neither is fiction or untruth, but your choice of words certainly affects the conclusions that students will draw.
The Los Angeles Times had an opinion piece by a historian that might clear up a little bit of it.
The author of this piece, Dr. Jonathan Zimmerman, is director of the History of Education Program in the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences in the Professions of the Steinhardt School of Education at New York University. His research focuses on cultural conflict in American public education.
(Interesting -- "Everyman" the protagonist, eight years before Joyce's HCE.)
History as a list of everything that happened would ... not be very interesting, let's say. Clearly, the goal is to extract knowledge, a narrative, a way of understanding the past -- the idea that history is simply a collection of facts is naive. And the idea that some politicians would legislate that error as fact should scare you.
This essay is really about the separation of popular and academic thought, which, in my opinion, is at the bottom of a lot of our current troubles. It seems to me there has been a deliberate derogation of educated people in our society, with the (intended) consequence of keeping the larger part of the population uncritical, unknowledgeable, and easy to manipulate. Academics have one kind of knowledge (which, trust me, is used by those in power), ordinary people are spoon-fed another.
To my mind, the re-defining and re-writing of history are more dangerous than the re-defining and re-writing of science that we have seen in recent years. Whereas science constantly improves our knowledge of nature and our place in it, history gives us a sense of identity, it tells us who we are in a personal way, where we fit into the story of the human race on the planet earth. If we give politicians the responsibility of picking which "facts" will be acceptable in the classroom, what is the probability that they will not select perspectives that serve their own ideological ends?
Common Dreams calls them on it this week:
Although U.S. students are typically taught a sanitized version of history in which the inherent superiority and benevolence of the United States is rarely challenged, the social and political changes unleashed in the 1960s have opened up some space for a more honest accounting of our past. But even these few small steps taken by some teachers toward collective critical self-reflection are too much for many Americans to bear.
So, as part of an education bill signed into law by Gov. Jeb Bush, Florida has declared that “American history shall be viewed as factual, not as constructed.” That factual history, the law states, shall be viewed as “knowable, teachable, and testable.”
Stop. Think about that. A law says that history shall be viewed as factual. You understand why they needed that?
Florida’s lawmakers are not only prescribing a specific view of US history that must be taught (my favorite among the specific commands in the law is the one about instructing students on “the nature and importance of free enterprise to the United States economy”), but are trying to legislate out of existence any ideas to the contrary. They are not just saying that their history is the best history, but that it is beyond interpretation. In fact, the law attempts to suppress discussion of the very idea that history is interpretation. Florida's Fear of History: New Law Undermines Critical Thinking
Compare this to the debate over the press. Conservatives have repeated the phrase "liberal media" so many times that not only have they started to believe it, but the media have bent over backwards to prove that they're fair and balanced, often reporting lies as equivalant to truth in order to avoid the appearance of bias. At the same time, liberals looking at the mainstream media see little beyond a government propaganda outlet, talking heads reading administration press releases as if they were real reporting. Biased left? Biased right? You'll find people who say each of those things.
And that's when you're talking about things that happened yesterday, things that living people saw and can verify or criticize. Imagine the same complaints, only now you're talking about events that happened a hundred or two hundred years ago. You can't verify it, you can't deny it. If the textbook says he cut down the cherry tree, he cut down the cherry tree, and that's all there is to it.
The fundamental fallacy of the law is in the underlying assumption that “factual” and “constructed” are mutually exclusive in the study of history. There certainly are many facts about history that are widely, and sometimes even unanimously, agreed upon. But how we arrange those facts into a narrative to describe and explain history is clearly a construction, an interpretation. That’s the task of historians -- to assess factual assertions about the past, weave them together in a coherent narrative, and construct an explanation of how and why things happened.
For example, it’s a fact that Europeans began coming in significant numbers to North America in the 17th century. Were they peaceful settlers or aggressive invaders? That’s interpretation, a construction of the facts into a narrative with an argument for one particular way to understand those facts.
It’s also a fact that once those Europeans came, the indigenous people died in large numbers. Was that an act of genocide? Whatever one’s answer, it will be an interpretation, a construction of the facts to support or reject that conclusion.
In contemporary history, has U.S. intervention in the Middle East been aimed at supporting democracy or controlling the region’s crucial energy resources? Would anyone in a free society want students to be taught that there is only one way to construct an answer to that question?
And you can't meaningfully talk about history without some interpretation. You will call a group of people "fierce," or "peace-loving," you will emphasize their wild pagan rituals or their patient agricultural practices. Neither is wrong, neither is fiction or untruth, but your choice of words certainly affects the conclusions that students will draw.
The Los Angeles Times had an opinion piece by a historian that might clear up a little bit of it.
... [I]n an unprecedented move, the president's brother approved a law barring revisionist history in Florida public schools. "The history of the United States shall be taught as genuine history and shall not follow the revisionist or postmodernist viewpoints of relative truth," declares Florida's Education Omnibus Bill, signed by Gov. Jeb Bush. "American history shall be viewed as factual, not as constructed." [Note: the words "revisionist" and "postmodernist" were removed from the final wording of the bill, after this piece was written]
Ironically, the Florida law is itself revisionist history. Once upon a time, it theorizes, history — especially about the founding of the country — was based on facts. But sometime during the 1960s, all that changed. American historians supposedly started embracing newfangled theories of moral relativism and French postmodernism, abandoning their traditional quest for facts, truth and certainty.
The result was a flurry of new interpretations, casting doubt on the entire past as we had previously understood it. Because one theory was as good as another, then nothing could be true or false. God, nation, family and school: It was all up for grabs.
There's just one problem with this history-of-our-history: It's wrong. All history is 'revisionist'
The author of this piece, Dr. Jonathan Zimmerman, is director of the History of Education Program in the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences in the Professions of the Steinhardt School of Education at New York University. His research focuses on cultural conflict in American public education.
Hardly a brainchild of the flower-power '60s, the concept of historical interpretation has been at the heart of our profession from the 1920s onward. Before that time, to be sure, some historians believed that they could render a purely factual and objective account of the past. But most of them had given up on what historian Charles Beard called the "noble dream" by the interwar period, when scholars came to realize that the very selection of facts was an act of interpretation.
That's why Cornell's Carl Becker chose the title "Everyman His Own Historian" for his 1931 address to the American Historical Assn., probably the most famous short piece of writing in our profession. In it, Becker explained why "Everyman" — that is, the average layperson — inevitably interpreted the facts of his or her own life, remembering certain elements and forgetting (or distorting) others.
For instance, try to recount everything you did yesterday. Not just a few things, like going to work or eating dinner or reading the newspaper, but everything. You can't. Even if you kept a diary and recorded what you did each minute, you would inevitably omit some detail: a sound in your ear, a twitch in your nose, a passing glance of your eyes. A 24-hour video camera might pick up these physical actions, but it could never record your thoughts.
So when somebody asks what you did yesterday, you select a certain few facts about your day and spin a story around them.
As do professional historians. They may draw on a wider array of facts and theories but, just like "Everyman," they choose certain data points and omit others, as well they must.
(Interesting -- "Everyman" the protagonist, eight years before Joyce's HCE.)
History as a list of everything that happened would ... not be very interesting, let's say. Clearly, the goal is to extract knowledge, a narrative, a way of understanding the past -- the idea that history is simply a collection of facts is naive. And the idea that some politicians would legislate that error as fact should scare you.
Becker was an optimist. Although historians could never determine the capital-T "Truth," he wrote, they could get progressively closer to it by asking new questions, collecting new facts and constructing new interpretations.
Nevertheless, he concluded his 1931 address on a pessimistic note: Unless the profession engaged lay readers — unless, that is, we taught the public about what we actually do — Americans would reject history itself, taking comfort in banal pieties and sugarcoated myths.
And surely one of the biggest myths of all is that history is simply about "facts." This year marks the 75th anniversary of Becker's famous speech, yet Americans appear no nearer to understanding that all pasts are "constructed," that all facts require interpretation and that all history is "revisionist" history.
Demagogic politicians are certainly at fault for this situation, but historians bear a good deal of blame too. Unlike Becker's generation of scholars, who worked hard to cultivate a lay readership, most of us write only for each other. Is it any wonder that the public has no idea about how we go about choosing topics, identifying sources and arriving at conclusions?
"It should be a relief to us to renounce omniscience," Becker wrote 75 years ago, "to recognize that every generation, our own included, will, must inevitably, understand the past and anticipate the future in the light of its own restricted experience."
This essay is really about the separation of popular and academic thought, which, in my opinion, is at the bottom of a lot of our current troubles. It seems to me there has been a deliberate derogation of educated people in our society, with the (intended) consequence of keeping the larger part of the population uncritical, unknowledgeable, and easy to manipulate. Academics have one kind of knowledge (which, trust me, is used by those in power), ordinary people are spoon-fed another.
To my mind, the re-defining and re-writing of history are more dangerous than the re-defining and re-writing of science that we have seen in recent years. Whereas science constantly improves our knowledge of nature and our place in it, history gives us a sense of identity, it tells us who we are in a personal way, where we fit into the story of the human race on the planet earth. If we give politicians the responsibility of picking which "facts" will be acceptable in the classroom, what is the probability that they will not select perspectives that serve their own ideological ends?
31 Comments:
"To my mind, the re-defining and re-writing of history are more dangerous than the re-defining and re-writing of science that we have seen in recent years."
Yes it is. You should stop defending the liberal anti-Democratic forces who do it. (Have you read the book that came out last year where a revisionist historian discovered Abraham Lincoln was gay?)
The facts from history that are important are those which tell us how we came to be who we are. Our country is the most successful and benevolent the world has ever known, despite its faults. Can you think of any other candidates for the title?
A couple of years ago, I was up in Montreal and watched a multi-media presentation on Canadian history. After going over the British victory over the French, the narrator said "But the two sides soon learned to get along and it was a good thing because a new menace was arising to the South." At this, they threw up the nastiest looking portrait of George Washington I'd ever seen.
Oh, brother!
H.A.
Anonymous, your statements here are incoherent. Are you saying that people who interpret history different from you are wrong?
PB
Anonymous-PB
Some are. Could you be more specific?
In cases, where a value judgment is made on what's the purpose to teaching history, or if there truly no right or wrong, the democratically elected local officials should decide the emphasis. They may decide to delegate this responsibility but retain the responsibility to try something else if things get out of hand.
If liberals want to teach a minority interpretation, they can start their own private schools.
H.A.
You are kidding me. Elected politicians should decide what is and what is not history? Elected politicians should decide what's taught in classrooms? You're joking, right?
PB
Here's a big surprise:
Lesbian Couple in Marriage Lawsuit Splits
BOSTON (July 21) -- The lesbian couple whose lawsuit led to legal same-sex marriage in Massachusetts have announced they have separated.
"Julie and Hillary Goodridge are amicably living apart," Mary Breslauer, a local political consultant, said Thursday night on their behalf. Breslauer declined to comment on how long they had been separated or whether the couple planned to divorce.
The Goodridges were among seven gay couples whose lawsuit helped thrust Massachusetts into the center of a nationwide debate on gay marriage. The state's Supreme Judicial Court issued its narrow 4-3 ruling in November 2003 in their favor -- saying gays and lesbians had a right under the state constitution to wed.
The Goodridges were married May 17, 2004, the first day same-sex marriages became legal under the court ruling, by a Unitarian Universalist minister. Their daughter, Annie, now 10, served as ring-bearer and flower girl.
Now, Breslauer said, for Annie's sake, the Goodridges want privacy.
The child figured prominently in the Goodridges' case. When Julie Goodridge gave birth by cesarean section, there were complications. Hillary Goodridge, at the time having no legal relationship with mother or child, said she was barred several times from seeing her daughter and partner.
"Even though their number one priority was their daughter," Breslauer said, "marriage makes her also their legal obligation. Their daughter is more protected because they are married."
Julie Goodridge declined to comment, saying Breslauer was the family's acting spokeswoman. Hillary Goodridge did not return a telephone message left at a business listing Thursday night.
07/21/06 01:19 EDT
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.
"You are kidding me. Elected politicians should decide what is and what is not history? Elected politicians should decide what's taught in classrooms? You're joking, right?
PB"
No, the community, which is paying for the education, should decide what history is important to be taught. History is history. Obviously, you can't teach everything minute detail. Judgments have to be made. Fringe groups have a legal right to open their own schools to teach the parts and biases they want. Taxpayers have the same right.
TTF, BTW, opposes teaching kids about the history of society's attitudes about homosexuality.
H.A.
"TTF, BTW, opposes teaching kids about the history of society's attitudes about homosexuality."
Quote or link, please.
PB
Confirm or deny, please.
H.A.
H.A. said:
Here's a big surprise:
Lesbian Couple in Marriage Lawsuit Splits
____________
Hmmmm and heterosexual couples don't split?
Anne
America Revised by Frances Fitzgerald (1980) is a very interesting discussion of how the teaching of American hisory developed over the generations.
The goal of any American history class must be to present the pertinent facts of our national story in a way that is coherent and encourages students to assess our story -- both the good and the bad -- in a way that will enable them to become effective members of a democratic society. Of course, it is impossible to present every single fact. Decisions of professional educators as to what facts to include (or what facts to stress) will, from time to time, be incongruent with the choices some parents might make.
The goal should be to provide students with accurate information so that they may draw their own conclusions.
I believe that the story of America is so unique and so important for the development of the human race that if we give them the basic, unvarnished information, most will become informed patriots. But the word "informed" is as important as the word "patriots." If love of country is based on a mythical view of America, then when the myth conflicts with reality, ill-informed patriotism either collapses or becomes mindless jingoism.
There was a time when American history was taught as if the Native Americans sort of disappeared after the first Thanksgiving, as if human slavery was not necessarily an inherent evil, as if the impact of slavery vanished with the end of the Civil War, as if our economic expansion in the Industrial Revolution had no human costs, and as if our forays into world affairs were always pure and disinterested (as if everything we did overseas was just like fighting World War II).
I believe that much of the mindless rejection of America by many American youths in the late 1960s was a result of the myths crashing into realities.
The idea that people should govern themselves rather than being ruled by those who were unaccountable really began in America. And it was refined and fostered in America -- even in the face of terrible truths that also were part of our national formation. I would hope that in learning the story of America, young people will feel committed to keeping what is good and improving what needs to be improved.
At bottom, the teaching of American history is a civic necessity. But if politicians seek to shoe-horn it into a pre-conceived orthodoxy, even if popular with a signficant portion of the electorate, our society will not be well-served. When teaching becomes propaganda, we undermine a free, democratic society. So the question, H.A., is not whether politicians have the legal right to impose such orthodoxy, but whether it is wise to do so.
And with that lets review.
Email from the author | 6/3/04 | Frances Rice
By Frances Rice
We, African American citizens of the United States, declare and assert:
Whereas in the early 1600’s 20 African men and women were landed in Virginia from a Dutch ship as slaves and from that tiny seed grew the poisoned fruit of plantation slavery which shaped the course of American development,
Whereas reconciliation and healing always begin with an apology and an effort to repay those who have been wronged,
Whereas the Democratic Party has never apologized for their horrific atrocities and racist practices committed against African Americans during the past two hundred years, nor for the residual impact that those atrocities and practices and current soft bigotry of low expectations are having on us today,
Whereas the Democratic Party fought to expand slavery and, after the Civil War, established Jim Crow Laws, Black Codes and other repressive legislation that were designed to disenfranchise African Americans,
Whereas the Ku Klux Klan was the terrorist arm of the Democratic Party, and their primary goal was to intimidate and terrorize African American voters, Republicans who moved South to protect African Americans and any other whites who supported them,
Whereas, according to leading historians (both black and white), the horrific atrocities committed against African Americans during slavery and Reconstruction were financed, sponsored, and promoted by the Democratic Party and their Ku Klux Klan supporters,
Whereas from 1870 to 1930, in an effort to deny African Americans their civil rights and to keep African Americans from voting Republican, thousands of African Americans were shot, beaten, lynched, mutilated, and burned to death by Ku Klux Klan terrorists from the Democratic Party,
Whereas Democratic Presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman rejected anti-lynching laws and efforts to establish a permanent Civil Rights Commission,
Whereas the Democratic party has used racist demagoguery to deceive African Americans about the history of the Republican Party that:
(a) started as the anti-slavery party in 1854,
(b) fought to free African Americans from slavery,
(c) designed Reconstruction, a ten-year period of unprecedented political power for African Americans,
(d) passed the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments to the U. S. Constitution granting African Americans freedom, citizenship, and the right to vote,
(e) passed the Civil Rights Acts of 1866 and 1875 granting African Americans protection from the Black Codes and prohibiting racial discrimination in public accommodations,
(f) passed the Civil Rights Act of 1957 and the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1965 granting African Americans protection from the Jim Crow laws,
(g) established Affirmative Action programs to help African Americans proper with Republican President Richard Nixon's 1969 Philadelphia Plan that set the first goals and timetables and his 1972 Equal Employment Opportunity Act that made Affirmative Action Programs the law of our nation, and
(h) never sponsored or launched a program, passed laws, or engaged in practices that resulted in the death of millions of African Americans,
Whereas Brown vs. the Board of Education of Topeka (a 1954 decision by Chief Justice Earl Warren who was appointed by Republican President Dwight Eisenhower) was a landmark civil rights case that was designed to overturn the racist practices that were established by the Democratic Party,
Whereas after Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt received the vote of African Americans, he banned African American newspapers from the military shortly after taking office because he was convinced the newspapers were communists,
Whereas Democratic President John F. Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil Rights Law, opposed the 1963 March on Washington by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and was later criticized by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. for ignoring civil rights issues.
Whereas Democratic President John F. Kennedy authorized the FBI (supervised by his brother, Attorney General Robert Kennedy) to investigate Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. on suspicion of being a communist,
Whereas Democratic Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, made a 14-hour filibuster speech in the Senate in June 1964 in an unsuccessful effort to block passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and was heralded in April 2004 by Democratic Senator Christopher Dodd as a senator who would have been a great leader during the Civil War,
Whereas when the 1964 Civil Rights Act came up for vote, Senator Al Gore, Sr. and the rest of the Southern Democrats voted against the bill,
Whereas in the House of Representatives only 61 percent of the Democrats voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act as compared to 80 percent of Republicans, and in the Senate only 69 percent of the Democrats voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act, compared to 82 percent of the Republicans,
Whereas Democratic President Bill Clinton sent troops to Europe to protect the citizens of Bosnia and Kosovo while allowing an estimated 800,000 black Rwandans to be massacred in Africa, vetoed the welfare reform law twice before signing it, and refused to comply with a court order to have shipping companies develop an Affirmative Action Plan,
Whereas Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore created harmful racial division when he falsely claimed that the 2000 presidential election was “stolen” from him and that African Americans in Florida were disenfranchised, even though a second recount of Florida votes by the “Miami Herald” and a consortium of major news organizations confirmed that he lost the election, and a ruling by the U.S. Civil Rights Commission declared that African Americans were not denied the right to vote,
Whereas the Democratic Party's soft bigotry of low expectations and social promotions have consigned African Americans to economic bondage and created a culture of dependency on government social programs,
Whereas the Democratic Party's use of deception and fear to block welfare reform, the faith-based initiative and school choice that would help African Americans prosper is consistent with the Democratic Party's heritage of racism that included sanctioning of slavery and kukluxery, a perversion of moral sentiment among leaders of the Democratic Party whose racist legacy bode ill until this generation of African Americans,
Now, therefore, for the above and other documented atrocities and accumulated wrongs inflicted upon African Americans, we demand a formal written apology and other appropriate remuneration from the leadership of the Democratic party.
From the news item:
"Lesbian Couple in Marriage Lawsuit Splits"
this rather strange request,
Now, Breslauer said, for Annie's sake, the Goodridges want privacy.
The Goodridges ought to understand that they made the choice to take this fight public, and use the judiciary (rather than the legislature) to radically redefine a bedrock social institution.
They made their bed; now they must sleep in it.
"Bush talk fails to win over NAACP
By Richard Allen Greene
BBC News, Washington
. . . Mr Bush addressed the annual conference of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People - the nation's leading African-American civil rights organisation.
He had turned down their invitations since becoming president, and looked like he could become the first sitting president since the 1920s to refuse to address the NAACP.
But two short days before the event his spokesman had announced that he would do so for the first time since he was a candidate for president back in 2000.
In typical fashion, he confronted the controversy head-on with a joke as he began his speech.
He praised the courtesy of NAACP leader Bruce Gordon, who had introduced him, adding: "I thought what he was going to say was, 'It's about time you showed up'."
The audience laughed, and cheered when he followed up with: "And I'm glad I did."
But Mr Bush got a more difficult ride for the rest of his 30-plus-minute speech, including a murmur of dissent when he said he came from a family that supported civil rights, and outright boos when he talked about charter schools.
He tried to link his support for religious organisations to the groups that fought for civil rights and was met with stony silence.
Courtney Patterson, a convention delegate from North Carolina, said he came to the president's speech with an open mind - and left disappointed.
"There were a lot of things in his speech that indicate he's not abreast of the real problems of the African-American community," Mr Patterson said." "
Orrin writes:
"Now, Breslauer said, for Annie's sake, the Goodridges want privacy.
"The Goodridges ought to understand that they made the choice to take this fight public, and use the judiciary (rather than the legislature) to radically redefine a bedrock social institution.
"They made their bed; now they must sleep in it."
Orrin,
Would you have said the same thing had the Lovings separated after the Supreme Court declared interracial marriage bans unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia?
David
David S. Fishback said...
“…But if politicians seek to shoe-horn it into a pre-conceived orthodoxy, even if popular with a signficant portion of the electorate, our society will not be well-served. When teaching becomes propaganda, we undermine a free, democratic society. …”
You are such a hypocrite when you are the exact same guy who had a federal judge slap down your sex-education curriculum because of trying to pass of one-sided propaganda for scientific fact. Violating the civil rights of the citizens of Montgomery County. You have no problem with violating someone else’s civil rights when it helps promote your political agenda. Though I would expect that. Typical lawyer argue any side of any issue as long as it serves the interests of their client. Am I supposed to think that you are making some kind of moral or ethical stand? Give me a break.
David S. Fishback said...
“Would you have said the same thing had the Lovings separated after the Supreme Court declared interracial marriage bans unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia?”
Read the letter posted, written by Frances Rice. The Lovings did not separate. Were you born an African American, the two have nothing to do with each other. Your statement is frivolous, no person is born gay. If you have proof that they are, please feel free to post it. Proof is a fact not a belief.
Black people wish they were treated as well as homosexuals.
“ You are kidding me. Elected politicians should decide what is and what is not history? Elected politicians should decide what's taught in classrooms? You're joking, right?”
Who do you think are deciding what is taught in the classroom now? Elected politicians. How do you think someone gets on the school board? Who decided to hire Waist? This is what we call a republic and that is how a republic works. We elect the people who decide what is taught in the classroom. What country are you from.
“…The child figured prominently in the Goodridges' case. When Julie Goodridge gave birth by cesarean section, there were complications. Hillary Goodridge, at the time having no legal relationship with mother or child, said she was barred several times from seeing her daughter and partner. …”
"Even though their number one priority was their daughter," Breslauer said, "marriage makes her also their legal obligation. Their daughter is more protected because they are married."
I wonder if they will use the child as a defense to get a divorce. Exploiting child for there agenda.
Sick people, they should both louse custody
I think we shut them up. no responces
I personally am just too shocked by the lack of charity today in the anon posts to respond.
rrjr
Robert,
There's a law in economics that says, basically, that "the bad drives out the good." Let's not let that happen here.
JimK
David writes,
Orrin writes:
"Now, Breslauer said, for Annie's sake, the Goodridges want privacy.
"The Goodridges ought to understand that they made the choice to take this fight public, and use the judiciary (rather than the legislature) to radically redefine a bedrock social institution.
"They made their bed; now they must sleep in it."
Orrin,
Would you have said the same thing had the Lovings separated after the Supreme Court declared interracial marriage bans unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia?
David, you asked what I consider a sincere question so I will try my best to answer you...I don't know. I have never had a close friend of another race, say black or asian, it just never turned out that way...I wish I had developed a friendship in college, but it simply never happened. I will be perfectly honest and admit that had I been born and raised in the South I might have just as likely picked up the regressive racial attitudes of that region, and that thought grieves me. Though my father was not perfect, he was a good man that never uttered a negative word about another racial or ethnic group (though I did see him angry on an infrequent basis, and swear in the course of that anger), and that settled on me as a quiet influence.
While there are superficial similarities between interracial marriage and same-sex marriage, scratch the surface and those similarities vanish. The decision by the US Supreme Court in the Loving case affirmed the most essential aspect of marriage, i.e. that it is the union of ONE man and ONE woman. Any judicial finding supportive of same-sex marriage would deny that essential element and in the process radically redefine the social institution that for a very long time and at present is marriage.
Every State where this issue has been put to a vote, even "Blue" States, has defeated it at the ballot box. That is why groups advocating this change have opted for the judicial route because they know they will lose if the question/controversy is put to a vote. And while some are bullied into silence by advocates attempting to recast this social controversy as a constitutional right (that is only now being discovered by those jurists sensitive enough to detect the "penumbras and emmations" from a "Living Constitution"), still others understand (even if only at a intuitive level) the difference between the genuine article, and a counterfeit.
Now, just to make things clear here...if voters change their mind, and push their legislators to make changes more along the lines of accomodating same-sex marriage, then as much as I don't think it is a good idea, I will be obliged to support it as a legitimate exercise in self government.
Ok, now I have answered your question...how about answering mine?
Question: given the principle of Equal Protection of the Laws, how would a father wanting to marry his adult (hence consenting) daughter do so? On what basis would American law deny such a request. Nothing all that extreme, nor entirely inconceivable.
Thanks, Jim
rrjr
David writes,
At bottom, the teaching of American history is a civic necessity.
So true.
But if politicians seek to shoe-horn it into a pre-conceived orthodoxy, even if popular with a signficant portion of the electorate, our society will not be well-served.
Again a sentiment that I would tend to agree with more than less.
When teaching becomes propaganda, we undermine a free, democratic society.
Question: what kind of propaganda? Left or Right...or just Right Wing, as in that nasty convergence of the Neocons with the Theocons? Frankly, I'd take this hyperventilating concern more seriously if public school teachers saw themselves more as teachers and less as "agents" of social change (which, regretably, is where Colorado high school teacher Jay Bennish was coming from, having received his license to teach from a school that promoted just that idea, the idea of teachers as agents of social change).
More on the Bennish controversy can be found here, btw,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Bennish
So the question, H.A., is not whether politicians have the legal right to impose such orthodoxy, but whether it is wise to do so.
Yes, that is a good question, and frankly one that I would prefer that legislators not focus on to any great degree. Guidelines are a better way to approach this issue. Students deserve to know the good, the bad and the ugly in a balanced way that gives events a context and a perspective.
The goal of any teacher worth their salt is not that they turn out students that orthodox or nonorthodox thoughts, but that they have thoughts, thoughts that can be expressed orally and in writing. And were I a teacher, I would fully disclose my biases from the start...
that I believe, like Abraham Lincoln, that this nation remains "the last, best hope of earth," and that over the course of the class I would attempt to support that view, while introducing the students to the view of others that have a contrary viewpoint.
Bottomline? There is no escaping the FACT that the study of history is by its' nature interpretive (a tad ironic if one pauses and considers that idea). Still, it is clear to even some high school students when their teacher tends to view this country in a manner like a Proctologist views his/her work.
Orrin writes:
David, you asked what I consider a sincere question [i.e., would he have made the comment about the Massachusetts plaintiffs about the Lovings, had they split up] so I will try my best to answer you...I don't know. I have never had a close friend of another race, say black or asian, it just never turned out that way...I wish I had developed a friendship in college, but it simply never happened. I will be perfectly honest and admit that had I been born and raised in the South I might have just as likely picked up the regressive racial attitudes of that region, and that thought grieves me. Though my father was not perfect, he was a good man that never uttered a negative word about another racial or ethnic group (though I did see him angry on an infrequent basis, and swear in the course of that anger), and that settled on me as a quiet influence.
While there are superficial similarities between interracial marriage and same-sex marriage, scratch the surface and those similarities vanish. The decision by the US Supreme Court in the Loving case affirmed the most essential aspect of marriage, i.e. that it is the union of ONE man and ONE woman. Any judicial finding supportive of same-sex marriage would deny that essential element and in the process radically redefine the social institution that for a very long time and at present is marriage.
Every State where this issue has been put to a vote, even "Blue" States, has defeated it at the ballot box. That is why groups advocating this change have opted for the judicial route because they know they will lose if the question/controversy is put to a vote. And while some are bullied into silence by advocates attempting to recast this social controversy as a constitutional right (that is only now being discovered by those jurists sensitive enough to detect the "penumbras and emmations" from a "Living Constitution"), still others understand (even if only at a intuitive level) the difference between the genuine article, and a counterfeit.
Now, just to make things clear here...if voters change their mind, and push their legislators to make changes more along the lines of accomodating same-sex marriage, then as much as I don't think it is a good idea, I will be obliged to support it as a legitimate exercise in self government.
Ok, now I have answered your question...how about answering mine?
Question: given the principle of Equal Protection of the Laws, how would a father wanting to marry his adult (hence consenting) daughter do so? On what basis would American law deny such a request. Nothing all that extreme, nor entirely inconceivable.
********************************
Orrin,
My question was not intended to suggest racism on your part, nor was it to address the pros and cons of legalizing same sex marriage through the courts rather than the legislatures. Rather, I was trying to illustrate that the fact that people seek to right what they see is an injustice through the courts should not expose them to inquiries into the ups and downs of their personal lives. Your answer suggests that you would not have done that with respect to the Lovings. I think the same should apply to the lead plaintiffs in the Massachusetts case.
In answer to your question about incest and marriage, I do not see that as an Equal Protection issue. I can see a compelling state interest in prohibiting such marriages (including same sex unions involving incest) because the incest taboo in Western and most other societies is rooted the in legitimate fear that such unions would destabilize families. A father lusting after his daughter (or his son, for that matter) creates all sorts of woes, and the state has an interest in not legitimatizing such behavior. On the other hand, since there is no basis for concluding that same sex unions would destabilize any families or hurt anyone at all, it seems to me that laws that deprive same sex couples of the rights and responsibilities of marriage run afoul of Equal Protection principles.
While I agree with the reasoning of Judge Kay's dissent in the New York case, and find the rationale of the Court of Appeals' principal decision utterly wrongheaded, sending advocates for same sex marriage back to the political process may be a blessing in disguise in the long run. Winning in the political process may create a stronger foundation for these equal rights than simply relying on the courts, notwithstanding how compelling the plaintiffs' arguments are.
David
"On the other hand, since there is no basis for concluding that same sex unions would destabilize any families or hurt anyone at all, it seems to me that laws that deprive same sex couples of the rights and responsibilities of marriage run afoul of Equal Protection principles."
It would cause harm but it would be a slower process. Homosexuality would become an attractive crutch for those who seem to have particular difficulty with opposite gender relations and, thus, society would produce fewer marriages, a stabilizing force in our society.
H.A.
H.A. says....
"It would cause harm but it would be a slower process. Homosexuality would become an attractive crutch for those who seem to have particular difficulty with opposite gender relations and, thus, society would produce fewer marriages, a stabilizing force in our society."
H.A.,
Do you have any evidence at all for this speculation? Assuming you are heterosexual, can you imagine "defaulting" to homosexuality if you were too awkward with the opposite sex?
Anonymous said...
"On the other hand, since there is no basis for concluding that same sex unions would destabilize any families or hurt anyone at all, it seems to me that laws that deprive same sex couples of the rights and responsibilities of marriage run afoul of Equal Protection principles."
The lack of scientific data or any data at all is erroneous there have been studies, you just ignore them. Your understanding of the Equal Protection act is misguided and inconsistent with the letter of the law
The Equal Protection Clause is a part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, providing that "no state shall… deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
You first have to change the marige laws, then you can clame Equal Protection.
Orin says,
"Frankly, I'd take this hyperventilating concern more seriously if public school teachers saw themselves more as teachers and less as "agents" of social change."
In my department (math), there's little thought of being agents of social change (of course). I'm not as well informed about the history department, but my impression is that most HS teachers are relatively conservative people, and happily teach the party line presented in text books. Under the "standards", history teaching has become very focused on learning a connection of facts (one of the original questions on the Virginia history SOL was how many barrels of tea were tossed overboard at the Boston Tea Party).
In the special ed department, there is a general notion of levelling the playing field, and advocating for our students.
Public high schools strike me as fairly conservative places (much more so than colleges, or the firms my friends work for). When teachers think of social change, they mostly think of instilling a sense of responsibility in their students.
I'm sure there have been surveys on the party affiliation of HS teachers and administrators. Does anyone know the results?
rrjr
"When teaching becomes propaganda, we undermine a free, democratic society."
"Question: what kind of propaganda?"
ANY KIND!
The first thing you need to know about history is that any history is interpretation, yet it is this crucial understanding that the new law is actively trying to suppress.
Jim, I'm usually a silent reader, but I read this post with my mouth open. It makes me want to cry. Knowable, teachable and testable. Factual. The Truth. This is a law to actively prevent history teachers from encouraging critical thinking. No, worse, they actively need to DISCOURAGE critical thinking.
Last, best hope of earth? [C3P0]We're doomed.[/C3P0]
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