Thursday, October 05, 2006

Well, All Right

The citizens advisory committee got through the condom curriculum last night. It took about three hours, but we did it. Most of the discussion, if you want to call it that, had happened in emails among the committee during the last couple of days, and by the time we got into discussing the items I think everybody knew how they were going to vote.

The condom curriculum was the easy part.

Next week we should get a look at the eighth grade sexual orientation classes. I am very curious to see what the school district comes up with.

As everyone knows, there's an election in a few weeks, and a number of seats on the school board are placed at the whim of the voting public. So even though the board is not directly involved in curriculum development, this curriculum is not being released in a political vacuum. How will that affect it? I would think that incumbents would hope the new curriculum does not call attention to itself, and that it appears to be liberal and fair-minded without really rocking any boats. In other words, they should want it to look like the last curriculum, objective, low-key, fair.

Things being what they are, the curriculum will be in the news, so that part's water under the bridge, there will be controversy, just because reporters have all our phones numbers now, and they know there's a story here already. I'm sorry it's like that, but that just seems to be how the world operates.

Now, the Big Question is this: will there be anything in the curriculum about "ex-gays?"

The question is extremely timely, in these days of Mark Foley and the big hypocrisy of anti-gay gay Republicans, with the GOP closet door straining on its hinges, on the brink of exploding open. Andrew Sullivan gave us an authentic, heartfelt look at what the closet represents and why gay people should come out and stay out. It makes sense to me that people would live and love with all their might (quoting Buddy Holly); if somebody is gay and open about it, at least everybody else knows what's going on, nobody has to keep Big Secrets. Life's easier, healthier, and happier all the way around.

But there are people on the committee, placed there not by the school board but because of a legal settlement, who want to deliver the message that gay people can and should go back into the closet. That they can call themselves "straight" and start all over again.

And why would they do that? You know the answer. It's so bigots won't make their lives miserable, mainly. Oh, they might call it religion, they might believe that God can't love them if they live and love with all their might, but ... well, let's not go there, whatever, they think they have to be straight, and some people want to tell them that that's possible.

Which is, obviously, a way to segue to a very thought-provoking article in this morning's Boston Globe, called The gay problem in the GOP -- here's the whole thing:
THE TRAGIC OPERA of former congressman Mark Foley is the revenge of don't ask, don't tell.

Foley, a Republican from Florida, resigned Friday after e-mails and instant messages between him and several teenage congressional pages surfaced. The Republican leadership knew that at least one page had gotten e-mails where Foley admired the body of one of the page's friends, and asked the page for a picture of himself, e-mails the page naturally found sick and a bit creepy.

Republican leaders responded to the potential political problem by telling Foley to knock it off. With respect to the larger issue, though, there was no asking or telling. The boy's own revulsion at the obviously inappropriate attention was ignored, not only by Foley's partisan fellows, but by some news outlets that also had seen the e-mails.

If this has a familiar ring, look in the Catholic Church for the bell. Republican leadership was acting like the Catholic hierarchy, which played shell games with men accused of sexually abusing children. And there's a good reason for the similarity. The inability to deal straightforwardly with gay people leads to other kinds of truth-avoidance when things go south. But that's what comes from not wanting to know something, and going out of your way to remain ignorant.

We've come a long way since homosexuals had two basic options: the closet or jail. But a good portion of the electorate, most of them Republican, still seems to long for the good old days when we didn't have to think about "those people." Both Libertarians and, generally, the Democratic Party have withdrawn their official support for the closet over time. States, too, are seeing what a losing battle this is, and allowing homosexuals to live their lives in conformity with, rather than opposition to, the law.

But that leaves Republicans and the religious right trying to live a 1950s lie in the new millennium. As Foley prepared in 2003 to run for the Senate, newspapers in Florida and elsewhere published stories about his homosexuality. But you'd never hear any of his colleagues saying such a thing. And Foley himself refused to discuss the issue, until his lawyer acknowledged Wednesday that the former congressman is indeed gay.

Being in the closet is hard to pull off without help, and for years Foley was eagerly abetted by his Republican brethren, whose willful blindness is at the heart of the current tragedy. Speaker J. Dennis Hastert, majority leader John Boehner, and others in the House leadership are still under the impression that the closet, like Tinkerbell, will continue to live as long as we all believe. And believe, they do -- against all the evidence.

But the number of people who believe in the closet is declining day by day and generation by generation. Hastert and the rest of his cronies are their own victims. The political turmoil they caused for themselves is only just.

But their failure to acknowledge the obvious reality has other victims as well: the boys whom Foley apparently pursued. Some of the messages show some tolerance of Foley's advances, but not much more. This was no one's "Summer of '42." The healthy disgust in one boy's use of the word "sick" repeated 13 times seems about right.

But what can one expect from denying grown men -- and women -- a normal, adult sex life? Whether the denial of adult intimacy comes from religious conviction or the ordinary urge toward conformity, people who run away from their sexuality nearly always have to answer to nature somehow. For people who fear abiding and mutual love, the trust and confusion of the young is a godsend. Add to that the perquisites of power, and a degenerate is born.

Fortunately for the arc of justice, the closet ultimately works against itself. Foley's case and the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal are the last screams of the dinosaurs. It took the dinosaurs a long time to finally die off, or evolve into creatures that could continue to survive, and the same will be true of the closet's final supporters. But they will look more and more ridiculous each time that they take pride in holding up the ruins of this particular antiquity while tending to the wounded when the building again collapses.

Like the Catholic Church, the Republican Party in Washington guarantees its own future calamities in its enduring and steadfast habit of pretending that, unlike heterosexuality, homosexuality can be either denied or suppressed.

Well, all right, that is a reasonable sounding perspective, isn't it? What do you say we accept the reality of this situation and move forward? What do you say Montgomery County steps out in front, instead of dragging along the false-minded bigotry of the failed movement that is disintegrating under the pressure of its own hypocrisy, even as we speak?

Sexual orientation, one way or the other, is not deniable, and it is not suppressible. And the schools should not even hint that it is.

56 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Gay Marriage Dealt Defeat by California Court

By LISA LEFF, AP

SAN FRANCISCO (Oct. 6) - A state appeals court upheld California's ban on gay marriage Thursday, a critical defeat for a movement hungry for a win after similar losses in two other states.

In reversing the March 2005 ruling of a San Francisco trial judge, the 1st District Court of Appeal agreed with the state's attorney general, who argued it is up to the Legislature, not the courts, to change the traditional definition of marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

"We conclude California's historical definition of marriage does not deprive individuals of a vested fundamental right or discriminate against a suspect class," the court said in a 2-1 decision. "The time may come when California chooses to expand the definition of marriage to encompass same-sex unions. That change must come from democratic processes, however, not by judicial fiat."

The justices, in their 128-page opinion, noted that California's ban on same-sex marriage does not discriminate against gays and lesbians."

I could've told 'em that!

October 06, 2006 10:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Well, all right, that is a reasonable sounding perspective, isn't it?"

No, it isn't. Thanks for asking though.

October 06, 2006 10:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The thing is, why doesn't all the points raised by the editorial apply to all other types of sexual deviancy? What's so special about homosexuality that merits special treatment?

October 06, 2006 10:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Bush Asserts Power to Edit Privacy Reports

President Defies Congress, Says He Has Right to Change Homeland Security Bills

By LESLIE MILLER, AP

WASHINGTON (Oct. 6) - President Bush, again defying Congress, says he has the power to edit the Homeland Security Department's reports about whether it obeys privacy rules while handling background checks, ID cards and watchlists.

In the law Bush signed Wednesday, Congress stated no one but the privacy officer could alter, delay or prohibit the mandatory annual report on Homeland Security department activities that affect privacy, including complaints.

But Bush, in a signing statement attached to the agency's 2007 spending bill, said he will interpret that section "in a manner consistent with the President's constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch."

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said it's appropriate for the administration to know what reports go to Congress and to review them beforehand.

"There can be a discussion on whether to accept a change or a nuance," she said. "It could be any number of things."

The American Bar Association and members of Congress have said Bush uses signing statements excessively as a way to expand his power."

I don't know why everyone thinks Bush is stupid. He's close to a political genius. Basically, he's figured out how to do a line item veto without amending the constitution.

October 06, 2006 10:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Amateur's Revenge
Posing as a physicist—and getting away with it.

By Jon Lackman

Posted Thursday, Oct. 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM ET


W.H. Auden once remarked, "When I am in the company of scientists, I feel like a shabby curate who has strayed by mistake into a drawing room full of dukes." Scientists often do have an aristocratic air. After all, they know things—important things, nature's secrets—that the rest of us could never understand ourselves. Or could we?

In a recent experiment of his design, British sociologist Harry Collins asked a scientist who specializes in gravitational waves to answer seven questions about the physics of these waves. Collins, who has made an amateur study of this field for more than 30 years but has never actually practiced it, also answered the questions himself. Then he submitted both sets of answers to a panel of judges who are themselves gravitational-wave researchers. The judges couldn't tell the impostor from one of their own. Collins argues that he is therefore as qualified as anyone to discuss this field, even though he can't conduct experiments in it.

Collins' feat startled the scientific community. The journal Nature predicted that the experiment would have a broad impact, writing that Collins could help settle the "science wars of the 1990s," "when sociologists launched what scientists saw as attacks on the very nature of science, and scientists responded in kind," accusing the sociologists of misunderstanding science. More generally, it could affect "the argument about whether an outsider, such as an anthropologist, can properly understand another group, such as a remote rural community." With this comment, Nature seemed to be saying that if a sociologist can understand physics, then anyone can understand anything."

October 06, 2006 1:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:
"The thing is, why doesn't all the points raised by the editorial apply to all other types of sexual deviancy? What's so special about homosexuality that merits special treatment?"

Maybe because there are people who want same-sex marriage legalised? Or at least, there are far more people who want it than people who want other forms of "sexual deviancy" legalised. I'm sure if other forms of "sexual deviancy" were widespread enough and gained enough support, then bingo, homosexuality is no longer so "special".

October 06, 2006 3:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The justices, in their 128-page opinion, noted that California's ban on same-sex marriage does not discriminate against gays and lesbians."

Well it certainly discriminates against gay and lesbian couples.

October 06, 2006 3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Marriage: The union of two men or two women.

Does that definition discriminate against heterosexuals? No. Heterosexuals are able to marry a person of the same sex, so there's no discrimination.

Are heterosexual couples discriminated against? Yes.

October 06, 2006 3:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Maybe because there are people who want same-sex marriage legalised?"

Well, there are. But they want it legalized not because they want to get married to anyone but because they want to legitimize homosexuality. Really, if they don't support heterosexuality why would they support marriage? The basis for both are the same.

October 06, 2006 3:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And what pray tell do you consider the "basis for both" heterosexuality and marriage?

October 06, 2006 3:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Divine mandate.

October 06, 2006 3:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:
"Well, there are. But they want it legalized not because they want to get married to anyone but because they want to legitimize homosexuality. Really, if they don't support heterosexuality why would they support marriage? The basis for both are the same."

You've made many assertions here. What makes you think they don't want to get married? What makes you think they don't support heterosexuality? What makes you think all they want is to legitimise homosexuality?

Your belief in your assumptions renders you largely unable to interpret without bias.

October 06, 2006 4:45 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

To say that California's ban on same-sex marriage does not discriminate against gays and lesbians is absurd, of course it discriminates - on the basis of sex. The ban says that I as a woman do not have the same right a man does to marry a woman. The fact that it gives a gay man the unwanted right to marry a woman does not in any way make up for the fact that it denies gays the right to marry the one person they love most. Any twisted statements suggesting this is somehow not discrimination are totally disingenous and hateful

October 06, 2006 6:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here are a few excerpts from the Wikipedia entry about marriage:

"A marriage is a relationship between or among individuals, usually recognized by civil authority and/or bound by the religious beliefs of the participants. The fact that marriage often has the dual nature of a binding legal contract plus a moral promise can make it difficult to characterize...

Typically, marriage is the institution through which people join together their lives in emotional and economic ways through forming a household. It often confers rights and obligations with respect to raising children, holding property, sexual behavior, kinship ties, tribal membership, relationship to society, inheritance, emotional intimacy, health care, and love...

The so-called "romantic" marriage is usually initiated by the participants themselves after realizing that a cathexic bond exists between them or that making a commitment to live together, share a household, and possibly raise children is mutually advantageous. Often it is a combination of factors..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

October 06, 2006 6:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

JK's hate against the ex-gay community demonstrates the need for ex-gay
inclusion in the curriculum. After all, tolerance was one of the reasons given
by MCPS for inclusion of gays in the curriculum.

October 06, 2006 7:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi Schimnosky said:
"To say that California's ban on same-sex marriage does not discriminate against gays and lesbians is absurd, of course it discriminates - on the basis of sex. The ban says that I as a woman do not have the same right a man does to marry a woman."

While it does discriminate on the basis of sex, it does not discriminate against gay or lesbian individuals. Men and women in general, regardless of their sexual orientation, cannot marry a partner of the same sex. It is simply men and women having different marriage rights from each other: men do not have the same rights as women; women do not have the same rights as men.

Randi Schimnosky said:
"The fact that it gives a gay man the unwanted right to marry a woman does not in any way make up for the fact that it denies gays the right to marry the one person they love most."

Regardless of your statement's validity, it is irrelevant.

Randi Schimnosky said:
"Any twisted statements suggesting this is somehow not discrimination are totally disingenous and hateful."

While some may be motivated by hate, the fact is gay and lesbian individuals are not discriminated against, although gay and lesbian couples are.

October 06, 2006 11:47 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

... JK's hate against the ex-gay community...

I seem to remember Elmer Fudd reading a book called "How to Catch a Wabbit." The first chapter, as I recall, was titled, "First, Find a Wabbit." Same problem we got with hating "ex-gays."

JimK

October 07, 2006 12:31 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous at October 06, 2006 11:47 PM said "While it does discriminate on the basis of sex, it does not discriminate against gay or lesbian individuals. Men and women in general, regardless of their sexual orientation, cannot marry a partner of the same sex. It is simply men and women having different marriage rights from each other: men do not have the same rights as women; women do not have the same rights as men."

Anonymous, to discriminate on the basis of sex is to discriminate against gay, lesbian, and straight individuals - we are all men and women whether or not we are gay or lesbian. If men and women do not have the same rights its discrimination plain and simple. If you're trying to suggest that its okay because "Men and women in general, regardless of their sexual orientation, cannot marry a partner of the same sex." then by the same logic you'd have to support a ban on interratial marriage because then men and women in general regardless of their race cannot marry outside of it.

October 07, 2006 12:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Q: What constitutes a lesbian "couple"?
A: Two lesbian "individuals".

When you discriminate against a lesbian "couple", you are discriminating against two lesbian "individuals".

And if you think the question of who we "love most" is "irrelevant" to marriage, pray tell what you think is relevant.

October 07, 2006 12:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi Schimnosky said:
"If men and women do not have the same rights its discrimination plain and simple."

Yes and I agree. Like I said before, it's discrimination on the basis of sex.

Randi Schimnosky said:
"If you're trying to suggest that its okay because "Men and women in general, regardless of their sexual orientation, cannot marry a partner of the same sex." then by the same logic you'd have to support a ban on interratial marriage because then men and women in general regardless of their race cannot marry outside of it.

I find it strange (or perhaps not) that you would assume my position on the ban. You don't know whether I support it, so it would illogical to conclude I would support a ban on interracial marriage. If a ban on interracial marriage existed, then I would simply point out that it's discrimination on the basis of race. My personal opinion remains irrelevant.

Anonymous said:
"When you discriminate against a lesbian "couple", you are discriminating against two lesbian "individuals".

Yes, but discrimination only takes place if the two individuals are indeed a couple and want to get married. This is exactly the same for any same-sex couple, regardless of their sexual orientation. If two heterosexual women wanted to get married for whatever reason, they would also be forbidden from doing so. In that scenario, are you saying that heterosexual individuals are being discriminated against? As a couple, yes, but individually, no.

You have to realise that sexual orientation doesn't actually play a real part in all of this; the only thing that matters is the sex of the individuals that make up the couple. This is why it's not possible to logically conclude that gays and lesbians are being discriminated against as individuals.

Anonymous said
"And if you think the question of who we "love most" is "irrelevant" to marriage, pray tell what you think is relevant."

In this context, it is irrelevant, because the issue is merely about the sex of one's partner. You can assume that it's all about love, but legally it doesn't matter. The condition is simply one man and one woman, and that applies to everyone, so there is no discrimination.

This mirrors the "special rights" claims that I often hear and it's easy to see why. Because sexual minorities are the ones noticeably affected by discrimination bills, some assume that special rights are being granted to them, when in fact no special rights are being granted. Heterosexuals are also protected, but it doesn't have any impact. Similarly, homosexuals are the ones noticeably affected by the "one man one woman" condition of marriage, so some assume homosexuals are being discriminated against. Heterosexuals also have this restriction imposed on them, but it doesn't have any impact. Every individual is restricted in this sense, so the only discrimination taking place is against same-sex couples (regardless of love or their sexual orientation).

The bottom line is, discrimination is taking place on the basis of sex, so same-sex couples are discriminated against. Sexual orientation and love are irrelevant in this context.

You could argue that because gays love members of their own same sex, they can't marry the person they love because the couple would be a same-sex couple which the law forbids. It's important to see the distinction between discrimination against gays, and discrimination against same-sex couples. The law is doing the latter, and doesn't take into account sexual orientation or love. Whether it's fair to discriminate against same-sex couples is a whole other issue.

(Note that everything I've said is within the realms of a marriage consisting of two people, and I deliberately left out other possibilities for the sake of this particular discussion. Don't extrapolate from the contents of the previous sentence; I included it only for the sake of objective completeness.)

October 07, 2006 4:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Now, the Big Question is this: will there be anything in the curriculum about "ex-gays?""

As long as there isn't any crap about homosexuality being innate, there doesn't need to be. Otherwise, there will probably be another lawsuit.

"The question is extremely timely, in these days of Mark Foley and the big hypocrisy of anti-gay gay Republicans,"

Mark Foley sought out under-age children while pushing legislation to stop people like himself. Sounds hypocritical but at least he was pursuing the right policies.

"with the GOP closet door straining on its hinges, on the brink of exploding open."

Oh brother! It looks like Hastert didn't put a stop to it when he should have. That might be to save a Republican seat but it's an unlikely theory since Foley's district was solidly Republican. In any case, that's him. It could have been that other Republicans knew since it sounds like it was common knowledge on the Hill. Obviously, Democrats knew it too and were saving it until right before the election. What a bunch of hypocrites!

October 07, 2006 11:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some perspective on Andrew Sullivan, who seems an example of the prevalence of random, anonymous promiscuity among gays:

"In May 2001, Village Voice columnist Michael Musto said that Sullivan had anonymously posted advertisements for bareback sex (anal sex and / or oral sex without a condom) on America Online and the now-defunct website barebackcity.com. Subsequently, the Italian-American journalist and activist Michelangelo Signorile wrote about the scandal in a front-page article in a New York gay magazine LGNY, igniting a storm of controversy.

Sullivan's critics have argued that it was hypocritical of Sullivan to engage in this kind of sexual activity while arguing against gay sexual promiscuity. They claim that the vision of gay sexuality presented in Sullivan's writing is at odds with the activities he was said to be engaging in. They also charge that because Sullivan was HIV-positive, it was unsafe for him to engage in sex without a condom.

Sullivan's defenders respond that the advertisement noted that Sullivan was HIV-positive and that Sullivan only had bareback sex with consenting adults who were also HIV-positive. According to Sullivan, this significantly reduced the risk inherent in his behavior. Moreover, he has derided what he called a "thin reed of evidence" of the existence of "reinfection" which, according to medical professionals, heightens the destruction caused by the virus. In Sullivan's book, Love Undetectable (pub. 1999), Sullivan writes:

Although I never publicly defended promiscuity, I never publicly attacked it. I attempted to avoid the subject, in part because I felt, and often still feel, unable to live up to the ideals I really hold."

October 07, 2006 11:16 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

"Republicans knew since it sounds like it was common knowledge on the Hill. Obviously, Democrats knew it too and were saving it until right before the election. What a bunch of hypocrites!"

Anon is spinning like an out of control top.

Which Democrat are you accusing of making the Foley scandal public right before the election?

According to today's Washington Post front page article about Hastert, "House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert's chief of staff confronted then-Rep. Mark Foley about his inappropriate social contact with male pages well before the speaker said aides in his office took any action, a current congressional staff member with personal knowledge of Foley and his behavior with pages said yesterday....The staff member's account buttresses the position of Foley's onetime chief of staff, Kirk Fordham, who said earlier this week that he had appealed to Palmer [Hastert's chief of staff] in 2003 or earlier to intervene, after Fordham's own efforts to stop Foley's behavior had failed. Fordham said Foley and Palmer, one of the most powerful figures in the House of Representatives, met within days to discuss the allegations."

Just exactly when were the Republican leaders of the House of Representatives going to publicize what they have known about Foley for all these years? Palmer apparently never felt it was necessary to disclose any of this to the public and in fact denies the accounts of both Fordham and the corroborating staff member to this day. Does that make Palmer a hypocrite or liar? Let's let the investigations shine light into this dark and secretive corner of the GOP House leadership.

Aunt Bea

October 07, 2006 12:34 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

If you people don't have the courage to use your real names at least use a pseudonym to minimize the confusion of all these "anonymous" postings.

Anonymous at October 06, 2006 11:47 PM said gay and lesbian individuals are not discriminated against by the marriage ban, couples are.

Anonymous, that is an irrelevant distinction. Couples are made up of individuals and one cannot discriminate against a couple without discriminating against the individuals that make it up. Whether you call it sex discrimination or discrimination against gays and lesbians is also irrelevant, the important thing is that it IS discrimination and its wrong whatever you want to call it. It prevents people, gays and lesbians, from marrying the one person they love most and that cannot be morally justified whether its legal or not.

Anonymous at October 07, 2006 4:57 AM also said "It's important to see the distinction between discrimination against gays, and discrimination against same-sex couples. The law is doing the latter, and doesn't take into account sexual orientation or love. Whether it's fair to discriminate against same-sex couples is a whole other issue."

No, its not important to see the distinction between discrimination against gays and discrimination against same sex couples, whatever you want to label it its wrong. Whether its fair to discriminate against same sex couples (individuals) IS the only important issue - your trivial bickering over labels and what you think is important and why is unfathomable.

Anonymous at October 07, 2006 11:16 AM brought up the alleged promiscuity of gays. Anonymous you paint LGBTs with a broad negative brush and that's unfair, offensive and wrong. Sure some gays are promiscuous and so are some heterosexual males - if heterosexual females were willing there would be every bit as much promiscuity amongst heterosexual males as there are gays. Regardless, many of us are monogamous and it is downright evil of you to ignore that. My boyfriend and I have the most wonderful pure love and deserve to be recognized for that. Keep your hate to yourself.

October 07, 2006 1:28 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Guys,

You missed what is the crux for Inane-Anon in this debate as in all others. He claims to have a direct line to his God. He claims marriage is between a man and woman by divine mandate.

Now, I've read the same Bible as he, and I don't recall seeing that mandate. I've even read it many more times than he. But be that as it may, it is completely irrelevant in our secular society, and that is what has fueled this right-wing fanaticism here in Montgomery County as well as elsewhere across the country. Make no mistake. For some people on this blog, like Orin, there are real issues of personal liberty and parental responsibility. For the Inane-Anons it is simply about the development of a radical theocratic state. As if we don't have our hands full with Iraq and Iran.

October 07, 2006 4:38 PM  
Anonymous Warning, fact ahead said...

Nice "perspective" on Andrew Sullivan. He's a conservative too but unlike our good pal Anon here, Sullivan attributes his quotes to their source.

BTW, here's the source of Anon's quote about his gay conservative pal which was cut and pasted with unnoted omissions and without attribution from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Sullivan

October 07, 2006 5:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi Schimnosky said:
"Anonymous, that is an irrelevant distinction. Couples are made up of individuals and one cannot discriminate against a couple without discriminating against the individuals that make it up."

True, but it's the couple that has to exist. Without the couple, there simply is no discrimination; the individuals are discriminated against as a couple.

Randi Schimnosky said:
"Whether you call it sex discrimination or discrimination against gays and lesbians is also irrelevant, the important thing is that it IS discrimination and its wrong whatever you want to call it. It prevents people, gays and lesbians, from marrying the one person they love most and that cannot be morally justified whether its legal or not."

In the context of this discussion, it's not irrelevant. This discussion was never about the morality of the ban or its justification; it's about whether gays and lesbians are being discriminated against.

Randi Schimnosky said:
"No, its not important to see the distinction between discrimination against gays and discrimination against same sex couples, whatever you want to label it its wrong. Whether its fair to discriminate against same sex couples (individuals) IS the only important issue - your trivial bickering over labels and what you think is important and why is unfathomable."

If it helps you understand that gays and lesbians are not being discriminated against, then it's important. You say discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong and unfair, and you have your reasons, but saying that gays and lesbians are being discriminated against won't help your cause because it's not true. Like you said, it's irrelevant as to whether it's right or wrong, but this discussion wasn't about whether it's right or wrong.

If you want to discuss whether it's right or wrong (fair or unfair), don't claim that gays and lesbians are being discriminated against, otherwise that could easily draw attention away from you want to discuss.

You could have simply said: "The ban on same-sex couples is wrong and unfair as it forbids gays and lesbians from marrying the person they love." I wouldn't have said anything.

October 07, 2006 8:40 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Randi

I'd say that ol' Anon here is pulling your leg -- I think he thinks he's getting under your skin.

Modern marriage is based on a foundation of romantic love -- of course it wasn't always like that, but in our society, in our time, people marry someone that they love. Used to be, you married for money or connections or out of obligation or your parents arranged it, but nowadays that's not what people mean by "traditional marriage." They mean starting a family with someone you love.

Anon's splitting hairs, but there's no point to make. I married my wife because I loved her, not because the options that I really wanted were all prohibited. Gay individuals male or female don't have that option, and the argument that they have equal rights because gay guys can marry women just like straight guys is absurd and not to be taken seriously.

Anon deserves a pie in the face, he doesn't need to be taken seriously.

JimK

October 07, 2006 9:01 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous at October 07, 2006 8:40 PM you said it yourself as far as gays and lesbians go "the individuals are discriminated against as a couple.". Read your own words "the individuals are discriminated against" - you just contradicted everything you've been saying. Your game playing has taken you full circle and you've bitten yourself in the *ss. Thankyou for acknowledging what I've been saying all along - gay and lesbian individuals are discriminated against.

Jimk, you were right and this loser has made it obvious he needn't be taken seriously.

October 07, 2006 10:39 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Randi

I don't know how well you know this site, I just noticed you here in the past few days. TTF formed in 2004 to defend the Montgomery County Maryland school board's decision to implement a good sex-ed curriculum that introduced, for the first time, sexual orientation as a topic.

I think our point of view is pretty clear, but of course there is a controversy here, and sometimes people from the "other side" come to our blog and comment -- as they are welcome to do. It's often very interesting. Some are just very modest about sexuality in general, some would like to go back to traditional values, some make very good points, and some are just here to play games and think they're smart.

There's no line between any of those those points on the continuum, and sometimes you'll see certain individuals who were being reasonable suddenly start lying and denying, like a Jeckyll and Hyde thing... and then they switch back.

It's been very interesting.

JimK

October 07, 2006 11:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"... you just contradicted everything you've been saying."

Incorrect. Don't ignore the other parts of that paragraph. Cherry picking out of context does not prove anything, and using such a cheap tactic to avoid all the other points addressed does nothing to help you defend your position.

It's unfortunate that bias affects the judgement and interpretation from both sides. I suppose you think I support the ban don't you? Regardless, it's my refusal of letting bias interfere that leads to others often misterpreting and extrapolating from my posts.

For the record, I'm a gay male wanting full marriage rights equal to that of heterosexuals where I reside so I can eventually marry the I one love, but I refuse to accept illogical interpretation. If I lived in California, I would certainly feel discriminated against, but I'm not one to let my personal bias interfere when it comes to discussion that doesn't require it.

Everyone, including gays and lesbians, has the right to marry an opposite sex partner. Unless this right was denied to gays and lesbians, then they are not being discriminated against. Yes, they have no need for that right, but they still receive it. Bringing back the "special rights" analogy of discrimination bills, heterosexuals have no need for that right, but they still receive it.

That is why it comes down to discrimating against same-sex couples (i.e. discrimination on the basis of sex). You can say individuals if you want, but discrimination only takes place if the result is a same-sex couple. I agree completely that it's wrong and unfair, but I will not say it's discriminatory towards gays and lesbians (although I'd like to).

If you want some enlightening information, you can head over to straightspouse.org. There you can find stories of gays being married to straight opposite-sex partners, whom they love deeply (mixed orientation marriages). They're probably uncommon and rarely ever planned, but nevertheless, they add a new side to the discussion.

And Jim, I deserve more than a pie in the face now.

October 08, 2006 7:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Self-loathing in general refers to an extreme dislike of oneself or of oneself's characteristics, very often a symptom of severe depression disorder; in this sense, it is more or less synonymous with self-hatred, although neither are clinical terms.

More often used in a political as well as a popular psychology context, it describes, often disparagingly, a person openly detesting characteristics of people that the person ostensibly shares him- or herself.

For example, a gay person who openly endorses anti-homosexual policies in government is often labeled "self-loathing"; famous examples include Roy Cohn, White House reporter Jeff Gannon or the former mayor of Spokane, Washington Jim West. The Log Cabin Republicans are often called "self-loathing" by left-of-center gay people for their support of a party characterized as anti-gay; defenders of the LCR however deny the charge, pointing out that the group withheld their endorsement for George W. Bush in 2004 specifically because he called for the Federal Marriage Amendment and that they routinely endorse pro-gay Republican candidates such as Rudy Giuliani.

In a very broad sense, some also use the term for gay people who criticize other homosexuals for engaging in stereotypical gay behavior; implying that it's not the stereotypical behavior itself that the critizing person objects to, but actually his own homosexuality of which he is reminded through the stereotypical behavior of others.

It has been suggested that self-loathing in many minority groups such as Jews, African-Americans and gay people is the result of being raised in a society that often discriminates against and stereotypes such groups. While it can hardly be a surprise that otherwise intelligent members of majority groups display racist characteristics when growing up in such an atmosphere, it has been surmised that minorities growing up in such groups are often just as susceptible to accepting such negative stereotypes and positively integrating themselves into the majority group. A minority member can either "pass" as a member of the majority (for example, a closeted gay) or they can conform to majority beliefs about their minority ("Uncle Toms" or "Oreo Cookies" among African-Americans)."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-loathing

October 08, 2006 8:15 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous at October 08, 2006 7:42 AM you and your absurdities deserve to be ignored and now you're just repeating yourself with your irrelevant distinctions. You're not convincing anyone of your silliness with the possible exception of yourself (and I doubt even that). The discrimination against gays and lesbians in a gay marriage ban is as obvious as the fact that you want to argue for the sake of arguing. I'm happy to let my previous statements stand for all to judge against your childishness.

October 08, 2006 11:00 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous said "Everyone, including gays and lesbians, has the right to marry an opposite sex partner. Unless this right was denied to gays and lesbians, then they are not being discriminated against."

Anonymous by your logic the laws against interacial marriage did not discriminate because everyone had the right to marry within their own race. People like you made that argument back then and your attitude is just as bigoted.

October 08, 2006 12:10 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

and anonymous, don't forget that according to your logic the ban against interracial marriage did not discriminate against individuals on the basis of race because it only applied to couples.

October 08, 2006 1:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi Schimosky said:
"Anonymous by your logic the laws against interacial marriage did not discriminate because everyone had the right to marry within their own race. People like you made that argument back then and your attitude is just as bigoted."

You're putting words in my mouth. In no way did I say there wasn't any discrimination; I said gays and lesbians weren't discrminated against because they had the same rights that everyone else had. I've always said there was discrimination -- discrimination against same-sex couples. My logic is fine; you're the one misinterpreting and extrapolating.

I wouldn't support a ban on interracial marriage, and I don't support the ban on same-sex couples (and I certainly wouldn't argue for those bans). Just because I don't support the ban doesn't mean I'm going to go against logic and claim something that's not true.

And to the other Anon, I'm not self-loathing. I hate the ban on same-sex couples and I'm perfectly content with my orientation. Why am I debating technicalities? Because I know these technicalities are often brought up by people who endorse and support the ban, and use these technicalities as reasons for doing so. However, I'm showing that despite these truthful technicalities, it doesn't make it the ban FAIR.

Randi Schimnosky said:
"and anonymous, don't forget that according to your logic the ban against interracial marriage did not discriminate against individuals on the basis of race because it only applied to couples."

How could individuals be discriminated on the basis of race if there was a no partner of another race? They still had the same right as everybody else to marry a partner of their own race. Discrimination against individuals would only have taken place if a specific race was forbidden from marriage completely.

October 09, 2006 8:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi, I hope you can see I agree with most of what you've said. These "irrelevant disctinctions" are what many people use as sole reasons for supporting the ban while trying to seem fair (when really they just hate gays), and I'm showing that despite them being true, it's not fair, and they can't be used to support the ban.

October 09, 2006 8:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope you can see I agree with most of what you've said.

Are you the Anon who also said the basis for homosexuality and marriage is "Divine mandate.

October 06, 2006 3:59 PM"


If you don't want to be confused with other Anonymi, then use a name - any name so we can tell you apart.

Just me

October 09, 2006 10:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, the "divine mandate" guy was me. You've been having a coversation with someone else. To avoid confusion, I'll go back to name I was using for a while.

H.A.

October 09, 2006 12:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's assume the ban on interracial marriage existed today. For the purposes of this demonstration, I'll use black and white.

Say you have an interracial couple consisting of a black man and a white woman. They cannot marry because they are difference races: for the black man, he cannot marry because his partner is white; for the white woman, she cannot marry because her partner is black.

Now using the same couple, let's assume blacks were forbidden from marriage completely.

The black man cannot marry because he is black; the white woman cannot marry because her partner is black. The black man can't marry just because of himself and no one else.

The first scenario discriminated against the couple, while the second only discriminated against the black individual.

The difference is merely a technicality, but it mirrors the ban on same-sex couples.

October 09, 2006 1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Andrew Sullivan gave us an authentic, heartfelt look"

Jim seemed to have a favorable opinion of Sullivan but seems to dispute it when someone says that gay males tend to engage in random amd anonymous promiscuity. I had remembered reading a Sullivan column once detailing how he and other gays did indeed have this tendency.

Doing a search for this article, I came upon the Wikipedia entry which contain facts I didn't know but which, no doubt, gave context to the article I had remembered. I cut out some facts and posted them here. I put them in quotes to denote that they were not my words but didn't cite the source because I didn't use all the text. This moron:

"Nice "perspective" on Andrew Sullivan. He's a conservative too but unlike our good pal Anon here, Sullivan attributes his quotes to their source.

BTW, here's the source of Anon's quote about his gay conservative pal which was cut and pasted with unnoted omissions and without attribution from Wikipedia."

Seems to think this is somehow dishonest but they are actually just playing a game. Does anyone who read my post and then went to the Wikipdeia article believe my post was misleading?

Sheesh!

Let me again quote Sullivan:

"Although I never publicly defended promiscuity, I never publicly attacked it. I attempted to avoid the subject, in part because I felt, and often still feel, unable to live up to the ideals I really hold"

What we see here is one of the most prominent and open gay Americans saying he believes he is unable to be anything other than promiscous.

H.A.

October 09, 2006 1:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You missed what is the crux for Inane-Anon in this debate as in all others. He claims to have a direct line to his God. He claims marriage is between a man and woman by divine mandate."

Doctor:

We all have a direct line from God. It's called the Bible and speaks clearly about marriage. Read the first few chapters of Genesis. I know- you have.

"Now, I've read the same Bible as he, and I don't recall seeing that mandate. I've even read it many more times than he."

I think you might have a bias preventing you from readly certain passages with integrity.

"But be that as it may, it is completely irrelevant in our secular society,"

Why do you say our society is secular?

"and that is what has fueled this right-wing fanaticism here in Montgomery County as well as elsewhere across the country."

The desire for a commitment to traditional morality isn't entirely religious and is hardly "fanaticism". That's merely a rhetorical device and not probable to win you many points.

"Make no mistake. For some people on this blog, like Orin, there are real issues of personal liberty and parental responsibility."

You mean Orin's not engaged in "fanaticism" too?

"For the Inane-Anons it is simply about the development of a radical theocratic state."

Hmmm. It seems to me that if "radical" has any meaning it would apply to TTF who wants change things rather than CRC which desires to preserve traditional morality. Again, you're doing performing some really gymnastic rhetoric here. Quite impressive, but a long-shot to fool the American people. They've repeatedly rejected a change in the definition of marriage.

"As if we don't have our hands full with Iraq and Iran."

No comparison at all. Judeo-Christianity is a tolerant tradition relying on reason, moral suasion and individual conscience. Reference the remarks of Benedict a few weeks ago. While we don't support government endorsement of homosexuality by, for example, recognizing a new type of marriage or endorsement of a disputable gay agenda curriculum in schools, we also don't believe the government should be enforcing personal morality.

That's a small difference, wouldn't you say?

October 09, 2006 2:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ooops! That last one was H.A..

October 09, 2006 2:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

HA, the stereotypes are easy and pretty much don't mean anything except to the True Believers like yourself. Straight men would be purely promiscuous if it didn't require the complicity of straight women. This kind of argument-from-ugliness doesn't impress anyone.

October 09, 2006 2:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "argument-from-ugliness" is simply that male and female characteristics complement one another in a way that produces a stable and harmonious society. For those who have attraction to, empathy with, compassion about, admiration for those of the same gender, there are more appropriate avenues to channel these feelings.

This whole "True Believer" thing is a farce. There are those on your side with strong convictions as well. Whether that's good or not depends on the topic.

You're deluded.

October 09, 2006 3:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ooops! That last one was H.A..

October 09, 2006 3:01 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous at October 09, 2006 2:25 PM (H.A.) said "Judeo-Christianity is a tolerant tradition relying on reason, moral suasion and individual conscience.".
H.A. the old testament desribes a god that is anything but rational, tolerant or moral. He's psychotic and out of control, repeatedly having angry outbursts where he destroys his own people again and again; commands his people to kill all the residents of entire settlements, women, children, and infants. In one instance when the arc of the convenant is going over some rough roads and one of his servants steadies it to preserve it from damage he kills that servant - he's obviously evil. This is an immoral and inexplicably insecure god. No moral god would allow people to be follow the supposedly wrong religion then torture them for all of eternity for an honest mistake. Fundamental to the bible is that the Jews are god's chosen people, this god is a racist full of hate and loathing for practically the entire human race including his so called chosen people. The punishment should fit the crime and when two men love and support each other this is worthy of praise, no loving god would eternally torture two people for being in love.

Over the millenia there have been thousands of religions and at best only one of them might be true, the odds are thousands to one that its Christianity. Its the historical nature of religions to be false and belief in any of them is not in any way rational - in nature we do not see examples of magic and the impossible, a belief in god(s) is inconsistent with normal day to day life and completely unreasonable.

October 09, 2006 4:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What we see here is one of the most prominent and open gay Americans saying he believes he is unable to be anything other than promiscous."

Correction, what we see here is one of the most prominent and open gay CONSERVATIVE Americans saying he believes he is unable to be anything other than promiscuous.

With conservative pals like some who post here it's no wonder Sullivan acts like cross between Michael Johnston and GOP Representative Foley! It's always conservative gays who try to fit in with their straight conservative buddies who turn out to be predatory and/or promiscuous.

October 09, 2006 4:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Over the millenia there have been thousands of religions and at best only one of them might be true, the odds are thousands to one that its Christianity. Its the historical nature of religions to be false and belief in any of them is not in any way rational"

Judeo-Christianity is completely rational and, indeed, it's truth is inescapable. Comparing life in the Judeo-Christian world to that in other parts of the world might open your eyes. Gays, for example, are really only tolerated in Western societies.

"- in nature we do not see examples of magic and the impossible, a belief in god(s) is inconsistent with normal day to day life and completely unreasonable."

Nature? Worshipping creation rather than the Creator has always led to evil and suffering throughout history.

October 09, 2006 4:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ooops! That last one was H.A..

October 09, 2006 5:06 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

H.A. said "Judeo-Christianity is completely rational and, indeed, it's truth is inescapable. ".

H.A. you should read that bible of yours. I haven't finished the New Testament because the Old Testament was such a total immoral disgrace nothing written later could possibly redeem it. A couple more tidbits for you:
When Moses was asking Pharoah to free the Jewish slaves god hardened pharoahs heart ensuring continued conflict and suffering - what for? So he could show off his senseless miracles when he could have prevented the suffering and conflict in the first place? No rational, moral, loving god would do that. And what could be more irrational than the entire foundation of Christianity? Think about it! Jesus was supposed to be perfect pure, and innocent but god tortures and kills him for things he didn't do, for things others did. Its like a parent saying "My son Tommy was so bad I killed blameless little Suzy". If a parent behaved the way your god is supposed to have we'd be horrified and rightly condemn him/her - why would it be any different with your god?

Think about it, Jesus and god are supposed to be the same person, so god kills his himself to appease himself for what others did. It makes no sense! A supposedly all powerful and all knowing god is incapable of or unwilling to clearly and indisputably demonstrate which religion is true instead of eternaly torturing most of the human race he supposedly loves? You call that rational?!??!! Read even a fraction of your bible and give your head a shake.

No one's suggesting you worship nature, just that youaccept the non-supernatural reality of it which people experience day after day, year after year, millenia after millenia. Nothing is more responsbile for evil than religion which divides people into us versus them groups based on the idea that the world was created for just their group. Islam and judeo-chrisitanity will never be united through religion, religion has put these people at each other's throats for centuries. The only philosophy which can unite the world in peace and morality is one that puts fairness and equality first. We must all euqally share the pleasure and the pain to maximize the good in life and minimize the bad. Religion only gets in the way of that.

October 09, 2006 6:36 PM  
Anonymous Wholier Than Thou said...

Randi, you obviously miss the point of Christianity. It is a cannibalistic cult centered around a human sacrifice.

The Eucharist is nothing more than pretend cannibalism, they don't even try to conceal the fact that they are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a man who was sacrificed to "save" the rest of us.

You will probably be more satisfied looking to Jung for an explanation than your silly and superficial "logic."

-Wholier

October 09, 2006 6:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Randi, you obviously miss the point of Christianity. It is a cannibalistic cult centered around a human sacrifice."

Wholier

It may amuse you to know that this was the same thing Nero and the ancient Romans said of what they saw as a minor Jewish cult.

Read up on your history. You'll find the ancient Romans were some of cruelest and most evil people in human history. The liberal crowd would have liked them though. They had Pax Romana. Peace through fear. Kind of like the esteemed Saddam Hussein.

Meanwhile, the country where the Judeo-Christianity is the most dominant today is a land of freedom and plenty. Close to Utopia compared to most of the world and history. Far from a conqueror, we have to put limits on the numbers flocking here to join up with us, just maintain some order.

But they do have that strange cannibalistic metaphor.

October 09, 2006 9:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi,

You seem to have a lot of complaints with Judeo-Christianity. I'd love to give you my perspective. If you're interested, could you pick out, maybe, one a day and I'll try to address it.

H.A.

October 09, 2006 9:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The one before that was H.A., too.

October 09, 2006 9:27 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

H.A. if you want to give me your perspective I've given you several problems with "judeo-christianity" you can address - by all means pick one and have at it. If you think you can justify your comment about "judeo-christianity" being tolerant and rational given the features of your religion I've pointed out what on earth are you waiting for?

I live in Canada which is a far nicer country than the United States (which I assume is the religious country you refer to). The religious zealotry and hatred of gays in the States lately makes me feel like I'm living next to Iran. Looking at what's going on in Montgomery county, I sure wouldn't call the U.S. tolerant of gays and what tolerance there is is despite "judeo-christianity" certainly not because of it. Obviously the less religion there is the better it is for LGBTs, fairness, and equality for all.

Compared to the U.S. Canada is a secular country and at least until this point I am honoured and thrilled to live in this land of equal marriage, fairness and equality.

European countries that also have greater equality for gays (unlike the U.S.) in the form of civil unions are typically far less religious than the U.S. Spain which has equal marriage for same sex couples is predominantly Catholic showing even religious countries can put equality and fairness first.

October 09, 2006 11:30 PM  

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