The Gay Preacher, And a Proposal
This gay preacher story is getting big. Ted Haggard resigned yesterday, not just as big-tent preacher at the 14,000-member New Life Church, but as Numero Uno President of the National Association of Evangelicals.
As the Houston Chronicle has it:
Spero Forum (" Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic Discussion") has transcripts of answering-machine tapes of this big-time preacher trying to buy some meth (Haggard's middle name was Arthur, and with this gay prostitute he called himself "Art"):
Mmm, how dumb is that? Buying dope through an answering machine?
You know, you just wish this gay-hating business would go away after something like this. You'd think this would put it away once and for all. If anybody, anybody in the world, could walk the straight-and-narrow, could resist temptation, could pray away the gay, it would be this guy, the President of the National Association of Evangelicals.
He couldn't do it, and it's not right to expect other people to do it.
Here's a proposal: let's accept it. We don't know why, but some people are attracted to members of their own sex. Just happens, we don't need to understand it to accept it. There doesn't seem to be any harm done by it, it doesn't appear that these are bad people, they aren't the dregs of society or anything, they're just regular folks and some guys like guys, and some women like women. What do you say we just accept that it happens, and welcome these people into our society the way they are?
As the Houston Chronicle has it:
The acting senior pastor at New Life, Ross Parsley, told KKTV-TV of Colorado Springs that Haggard admitted that some of the accusations were true.
"I just know that there has been some admission of indiscretion, not admission to all of the material that has been discussed but there is an admission of some guilt," Parsley told the station. Key Evangelical quits amid gay sex claim
Spero Forum (" Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic Discussion") has transcripts of answering-machine tapes of this big-time preacher trying to buy some meth (Haggard's middle name was Arthur, and with this gay prostitute he called himself "Art"):
"Hi Mike, this is Art. Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply. And I could pick it up really anytime I could get it tomorrow or we could wait till next week sometime and so I also wanted to get your address. I could send you some money for inventory but that’s probably not working, so if you have it then go ahead and get what you can and I may buzz up there later today, but I doubt your schedule would allow that unless you have some in the house. Okay, I’ll check in with you later. Thanks a lot, bye." Transcripts of Pastor Ted Haggard soliciting drugs
Mmm, how dumb is that? Buying dope through an answering machine?
You know, you just wish this gay-hating business would go away after something like this. You'd think this would put it away once and for all. If anybody, anybody in the world, could walk the straight-and-narrow, could resist temptation, could pray away the gay, it would be this guy, the President of the National Association of Evangelicals.
He couldn't do it, and it's not right to expect other people to do it.
Here's a proposal: let's accept it. We don't know why, but some people are attracted to members of their own sex. Just happens, we don't need to understand it to accept it. There doesn't seem to be any harm done by it, it doesn't appear that these are bad people, they aren't the dregs of society or anything, they're just regular folks and some guys like guys, and some women like women. What do you say we just accept that it happens, and welcome these people into our society the way they are?
posted by JimK at 10:28 AM
27 Comments:
The terrible thing about a guy like this is claiming so much for the sanctity of heterosexual marriage and denying gay people the right to marry while he broke his own vows again and again. Mr. HTT proved how sacred he found his marriage.
And Pastor Ted Haggard's wife and kids will be paying a price for his actions for a very long time to come - possibly for the rest of their lives.
From an email sent out by Stephen Bennett, a top spokesman for the religious right, who according to his web site, is "Emerging as one of the nation's key speakers on the issues of homosexuality and the homosexual agenda":
"Will this affect the elections next Tuesday? Are Republicans disenfranchised with the hypocrisy within their own party - especially the hypocrisy within the driving force - the Christian Conservative base? You better believe it.
"The more and more hypocrisy I see each day, the more I realize next Tuesday we are going to get EXACTLY what we deserve. Yet I must NEVER forget where I came from and always remember 'But for the grace of God, there go I.'"
http://tinyurl.com/ybs35w
After he resigned, the board of overseers met with Haggard. "It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true," said Parsley in an e-mail to the congregation.
Ted Haggard is married and has five children and has vociferously opposed gay marriage.
Brad
"You know, you just wish this gay-hating business would go away after something like this. You'd think this would put it away once and for all."
After all this time, Jim still repeats this deceitful rhetoric. Being opposed to a redefinition of marriage to accomodate a group of people who don't deserve that status is not hate and, as always, a significant victim of the lunatic fringe gay advocacy movement is the English language.
"If anybody, anybody in the world, could walk the straight-and-narrow, could resist temptation, could pray away the gay, it would be this guy, the President of the National Association of Evangelicals."
After all this time scouring evangelical literature, I thought you might have, at least, gained some minimal understanding of Christian doctrine. An irreducible truth of Christianity is that no one can "walk the straight-and-narrow". The greatest figures in the Bible fell into sin. A drunk Noah rolling around naked on the ground, David killing off a loyal soldier to sleep with his wife, Solomon worshipping pagan gods- the list goes on and on. It doesn't mean we surrender to and teach what is wrong.
TTF's thought is that sin is irresistable so let's surrender to it?
TTF doesn't have a statement on this subject, but my personal thought is that a couple expressing their love for one another in a way that hurts no one fails to meet the standard commonsense definition of "sin."
JimK
Jim, I understand you don't think homosexuality is a sin. That's not the point. You seem to be asserting that because this guy did this, that we should admit that it's not. That if someone preaches that something is a sin and then does that very thing, it proves the preacher was wrong. It just doesn't follow.
One problem is that you're buying into the elevation of sexual sin. You would understand this completely if someone preached against cheating or lying and did just that. It wouldn't prove that there is nothing wrong with cheating and lying. And it wouldn't prove that one had no choice but to cheat and lie.
Anon, nice try but you're just making stuff up.
There is no reason in the world to think that being gay is a sin, whether it is identity, desire, or behavior, to use Peter's tripartite divisions. Most people aren't gay and don't understand it, and the "norm" statistically speaking is heterosexual, but infrequent occurrence hardly means something is a sin. You can quote a couple of vague Bible passages, but you still ... eat at Red Lobster, as Andrea pointed out. It's not that.
The rest of this stuff you're saying, you're just making it up, I'm not responding to it.
JimK
As I said, we don't have to agree on whether something is a sin to discuss the logical fallacy of saying because someone committed a sin, that means they're past identification of it as sin is invalid. It doesn't really invalidate anything unless he was saying he was an example of perfection himself but, as I said, that would be a contradiction of Christian doctrine. If the charges are true, it's a personal tragedy for this guy and his family- and that's it.
Dude, I think you're losing it. I never said any of that stuff.
This guy was living a false life. If he was gay, it would have better for the whole world if he'd just identified himself as such from the git-go. Instead, he spent his whole life trying to make the world miserable for those who did face up to their feelings honestly.
I couldn't care less, personally, about your bizarre concept of sin, or whether something is or is not a sin. Cheating on your wife is a bad thing to do. Lying to your congregation, yes, bad idea. Doing crystal meth, not so smart either, especially at his age. You don't have to reference any concept of "sin" to see this.
JimK
"If anybody, anybody in the world, could walk the straight-and-narrow, could resist temptation, could pray away the gay, it would be this guy, the President of the National Association of Evangelicals."
Jim, terms like "straight and narrow" and "temptation" refer to sin. You're the one who brought the concept into the discussion.
No they don't. You don't have to have a concept of of sin to know that some things are bad for you, even if they are attractive.
JimK
Anonymous at November 03, 2006 1:51 PM
The rational idea of what a sin is is when someone is hurt. If no one is hurt then no sin has taken place. When a man marries another man no one gets hurt and there is no sin. Its that simple.
A same sex couple that loves and supports each other deserves the freedom to marry as much as anyone else. The true reason people oppose this is hatred, the rest is just camoflage.
"No they don't. You don't have to have a concept of of sin to know that some things are bad for you, even if they are attractive."
Is that you meant? That being gay is bad for you?
Randi
Some people, maybe most, believe it's a sin to deny one's calling.
Anonymous at November 03, 2006 4:15 PM
For someone such as myself who is not twisted by religion, to sin is to committ a significant wrong. Not knowing any specifics regarding what you mean by denying one's calling but assuming no one is harmed by such a denial this cannot in any way be considered a wrong in at all the same way harming another is wrong. "Denying one's calling" might be unfortunate, it might be a loss, it might be less than optimal but it is not a sin as in being evil.
How about this idea - religion is the problem. That's it. Religion is the problem. Morality dictates that your behavior should not damage any other person. Religion is BS. There are several different brands of BS out there -- you can choose whichever fairy tale you like best, and whichever one you choose, it's BS. The reality is there are gay people, straight people, bi people. Try as you may, that is a constant, unalterable fact. Deal with it.
Sorry, Ed, but I disagree. Religion is not the problem. How people use religion may be a problem, though. You don't have to believe- my religion is not one that trys to convince people that we are right or have all the right answers -but your non-belief doesn't make me wrong.
Evangelical Leader Dismissed Amid Sex Scandal
Church Board Says He Committed 'Sexually Immoral Conduct'
By KIM NGUYEN, AP
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (Nov. 4) - The Rev. Ted Haggard was dismissed Saturday as leader of the megachurch he founded after a board determined the influential evangelist had committed "sexually immoral conduct," the church said Saturday.
Haggard had resigned two days earlier as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, where he held sway in Washington and condemned homosexuality, after a Denver man named Mike Jones claimed to have had drug-fueled trysts with him. He also had placed himself on administrative leave from the New Life Church, but its Overseer Board took the stronger action Saturday.
"Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct," the independent board said in a statement.
Haggard was "informed of this decision," the statement said, and he "agreed as well that he should be dismissed."
Haggard, 50, on Friday acknowledged paying Jones for a massage and for methamphetamine, but said he did not have sex with him and did not take the drug.
The statement from the 14,000-member church said the investigation would continue, to determine the extent of the misconduct. The Rev. Mike Ware of Victory Church in Westminster, a member of the board, declined to characterize what investigators found.
Haggard did not answer his home or mobile phones Saturday, and neither was accepting messages.
Jones said the news of Haggard's dismissal made him sad.
"I feel really bad for his wife and family and his congregation. I know it's a sad day for them, too," Jones said. "I feel bad when someone has so many attachments to others. It affects everyone. I'm certainly not cheering or jumping up and down over what's happened.
"I just hope the family has peace and can come to terms with things. I hope they can continue with a happy life."
The Rev. Ross Parsley will lead the church until a permanent replacement for Haggard is chosen by the end of the year, the statement said. A letter explaining Haggard's removal and an apology from him will be read at Sunday services.
Haggard's situation is a disappointment to Christian conservatives, whom President Bush and other Republicans are courting heavily in the run-up to Tuesday's election.
Many were already disheartened with the president and the Republican-controlled Congress over their failure to deliver big gains on social issues even before the congressional page scandal involving former Rep. Mark Foley.
Haggard, who had been president of the evangelical association since 2003, has participated in conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied Congress last year on Supreme Court nominees.
Haggard visited the White House once or twice, Deputy Press Secretary Tony Fratto said Friday.
Richard Cizik, the evangelical association's vice president for governmental affairs, called Haggard's ouster "heartbreaking and unfortunate."
"He is a man who has done a lot of good and who hopefully after a period of repentance and counsel and spiritual restoration will have a future ministry at some point," Cizik said.
The board's decision cuts Haggard off from the massive church he founded in the mid-1980s. He held New Life's first services in the unfinished basement of his Colorado Springs home.
Jones, who said he is gay, said he was upset when he discovered who Haggard was and found out that the New Life Church had publicly opposed same-sex marriage - a key issue in Colorado, with a pair of issues on Tuesday's ballot.
"It made me angry that here's someone preaching about gay marriage and going behind the scenes having gay sex," Jones said.
Jones also said Haggard snorted methamphetamine before their sexual encounters to heighten his experience but has denied selling drugs. He agreed to take a lie-detector test Friday; the administrator of the test said the answers about his sex allegations "indicated deception."
But Jones said Saturday: "Obviously they determined there was sexual indiscretions, so I think that vindicates my claim."
Haggard told reporters he bought meth but never used it; he said he received a massage from Jones after being referred to him by a Denver hotel. Jones said that no hotel referred Haggard and that he advertises only in gay publications.
In a TV interview this week, Haggard said: "Never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."
Church member Christine Rayes, 47, said the congregation had hoped the allegations "were all lies."
"We all have to move forward now," she said. "This doesn't make what Ted accomplished here any less. The farther up you are, the more you are a target for Satan."
Ted
Orin wrote:
"Oh, and what if after all of this it is discovered that this person is lying...what then? After all, if the allegation is true, we all know what will surely happen to Ted Haggard...and what penalty will Michael Jones pay if this is all a lie?"
Oh thee of little faith. Orin, I told you Mike "muscle-man-love-slave" Jones (gotta love those biceps) had been sticking it to Pastor Ted...but you just wouldn't believe me.
And Pastor Ted is now a proven scoundrel and a liar. This cretan went from snorting meth off a gay hooker's ass on Sundays, to conference calls with the President of the United States on Mondays.
This whole evangelical thing is beginning to look like exactly what it is -- nothing more than a cover allowing in-the-closet and in-denial gays to hide in plain site.
What you guys don't understand is that just getting a massage from a gay hooker would be enough misconduct that he would have been dismissed. I don't know what the whole story is but the accuser has failed a lie detector test about the sexual part of his allegations.
Admittedly, this whole massage thing is far-fetched (just like the priest who molested Foley) but it's possible the guy was tempted and ultimately resisted.
This whole atmosphere of glee is quite unseemly. This guy was opposed to a gay redefinition of marriage and preached that homosexuality was unbiblical but, so what? It's possible he was sincere about it and still able to compartmentalize his temptation. Lots of people do that about all kinds of things.
True, he may have "compartmentalized his temptation". True, "Lots of people do that about all kinds of things." Those people are called HYPOCRITES.
Anonymous said:
"This guy was opposed to a gay redefinition of marriage and preached that homosexuality was unbiblical but, so what?"
A hypocrite cheating on his wife and family. You just shrug that off and say no harm done?
K.A.
This whole atmosphere of glee is quite unseemly.
Interesting comment. Admittedly, there is quite a bit of glee and cheerfulness in the Left Blogosphere over this. It may seem unseemly in the light of this hypocrite's life unraveling before our very eyes, but I think it's defensible.
Ted Haggard represented a worldview that denied the humanity of a part of our society because of the kind of love they feel, and the kind of emotions they experience. The love that a gay man feels is the devil's work, according to this worldview, and that gay man needs to be shunned and cut out of our society.
Our side holds, on the other hand, that the gay person is just feeling the way God intended them to feel. We don't know why some people feel that way, but they do, it's part of nature, it's not any kind of plot to overthrow or undermine the rest of us, and our side feels we should let people live in whatever way they are happy.
In the case of Ted Haggard, we see clearly that the views he asserted, especially the views that judged and feared gay people, are nothing but hypocrisy. Can you imagine that, as someone here said, he "went from snorting meth off a gay hooker's ass on Sundays, to conference calls with the President of the United States on Mondays?"
My view is that religious people have the right to try to live according to the gospel as they understand it, but they have no business trying to force it on the rest of us. Why was this guy talking to the President every week? If it wasn't about law-making then what was there to talk about? It was about forcing their nutty beliefs, beliefs that they themselves can't live with, on the rest of us.
Yes, there is a little glee in seeing the President of the National Association of Evangelicals brought down; maybe some members of his flock will realize that what he is preaching is wrong. These liars have been a terrible negative force in American history, destroying everything we hold to be important, and the more they fall apart the happier I am about it.
Is that "unseemly?" To my mind it's patriotic; it may be one important step in returning America to its former position of pride.
JimK
"True, he may have "compartmentalized his temptation". True, "Lots of people do that about all kinds of things." Those people are called HYPOCRITES."
Yes, they are. Unfortunately, it's a description that would apply to almost anyone at some time or the other. Your big problem with him is not his hypocrisy but what you perceive as his effectiveness in speaking for pro-family groups.
From what I've seen so far, his church seems to be handling the allegations appropriately and, he, while admitting guilt also has not disavowed the principles of traditional morality. He simply admits his moral failure. Even in his disgrace, he appears to be taking a higher moral road than the average TTF wacko.
"Ted Haggard represented a worldview that denied the humanity of a part of our society because of the kind of love they feel, and the kind of emotions they experience. The love that a gay man feels is the devil's work, according to this worldview, and that gay man needs to be shunned and cut out of our society."
Unbelievable. The whole Christian doctrine, which I believe you know about because you vigorously argued against it, is that the human condition is sinful. So how would they be denying their humanity to call a behavior sinful?
"Our side holds, on the other hand, that the gay person is just feeling the way God intended them to feel."
That's not the other hand but, true, Christianity holds homosexuality to be a corruption of human nature which is not part of God's will. It's not the only corruption and, again, Christians believe everyone is corrupted in some way or another.
"We don't know why some people feel that way, but they do, it's part of nature,"
This is not a positive statement. All kinds of evil things are part of nature.
"it's not any kind of plot to overthrow or undermine the rest of us,"
I think you confuse rhetoric about the goals of the gay advocacy movement with the aspirations of the average person suffering from same-gender attraction.
"and our side feels we should let people live in whatever way they are happy."
No one's suggesting any laws against it. Non-endorsement is the only thing the family advocacy groups call on the government for.
"In the case of Ted Haggard, we see clearly that the views he asserted, especially the views that judged and feared gay people, are nothing but hypocrisy."
Advocating traditional morality is "judging" or "fearing". You guys get to the point where you start to believe your own rhetoric. That, and the word twisting, usually signal the beginning of a fascist movement.
"Can you imagine that, as someone here said, he "went from snorting meth off a gay hooker's ass on Sundays, to conference calls with the President of the United States on Mondays?""
Yes, I can. It seems similar to the behavior of Marion Barry and Bill Clinton.
"My view is that religious people have the right to try to live according to the gospel as they understand it, but they have no business trying to force it on the rest of us."
No one has tried to do that.
"Why was this guy talking to the President every week?"
It's because he represented a constituency that elected Bush in a free and fair election.
"If it wasn't about law-making then what was there to talk about?"
I doubt if homosexuality was a frequent topic of discussion. Probably ending abortion and supporting families was a more common subject.
"It was about forcing their nutty beliefs, beliefs that they themselves can't live with, on the rest of us."
Who couldn't live with the idea that they can be forgiven as long as accept forgiveness?
"Yes, there is a little glee in seeing the President of the National Association of Evangelicals brought down; maybe some members of his flock will realize that what he is preaching is wrong. These liars have been a terrible negative force in American history, destroying everything we hold to be important, and the more they fall apart the happier I am about it."
Right now it seems the members of his church are conducting themselves more appropriately than the lunatic fringe groups.
"Is that "unseemly?" To my mind it's patriotic; it may be one important step in returning America to its former position of pride."
Yes, a return to the halycon days when homosexuality was seen as normal. BTW, when was that?
anonymous at November 06, 2006 2:41 PM said "The whole Christian doctrine...is that the human condition is sinful. So how would they be denying their humanity to call a behavior sinful?"
The christian doctrine is wrong. A newborn baby who has done nothing is not sinful. Behaviors that don't harm others are not sinful. Haggard represented the worldview that denied the humanity of others by calling harmless loving behavior sinful.
All of recorded history has known that gayness is a normal part of the human condition for a minority of the population, if it was a corruption we would see civilizations and periods in history where it waxed and waned, we don't thus indicating it is not a corruption. Christianity is wrong again, as it almost always is.
Anonymous said "I think you confuse rhetoric about the goals of the gay advocacy movement with the aspirations of the average person suffering from same-gender attraction."
We don't suffer from same-gender attraction, we suffer from the evil oppression of those who hate us for being that way. The goals of the gay advocacy movement and the average gay are in sync, its all about fairness and equality for all. The right to hold a job or a residence without being unjustly deprived of them, the right to marry the one person we love most, the right to be free from violence and social repression for being who we are.
Anonymous said "No one's suggesting any laws against it. Non-endorsement is the only thing the family advocacy groups call on the government for."
Wrong, "family" (anti-gay) groups like "Focus on the Family" have advocated for so called sodomy laws to punish the expression of same sex love. They also oppose using the law to diminish violence and discrimination against gays.
Anonymous claimed religious people have not tried to force the rest of us to live according to the gospel as they understand it. Wrong again. Religious people try to force women to continue all pregnancies. Religious people opposed the overturning of "sodomy" laws and oppose anti-discrimination laws and school anti-bullying programs because they want to coerce people into suppressing their gayness. Religious people try to use the law for forceably prevent same sex marriages. Religious people aren't content to live their lives as they choose, they have to try to control all others as well.
We don't know why some people feel same sex attractions, but they do, it's part of nature.
Anoynmous says "This is not a positive statement. All kinds of evil things are part of nature.".
Wrong again, anonymous. This is a positive statement. We seperate the good and bad in nature by which is harmful and which isn't. A love like mine and other gays is a wonderful supportive constructive thing and as it causes no harm its a positive to let what comes naturally occur in this case.
Rational educated people throughout history have seen being gay as normal for a small percentage of the population. Only the narrow minded and self-obssessed think otherwise.
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