An Uncharitable Hypothesis
When I first got into this controversy I didn't know anything about gay people or anti-gay people, for that matter. I was just a naive straight white guy who had started worrying about bad stuff happening to my country, saw it happening in my hometown, and went to war against it.
Then I got swept up in it, and, really, from Day One I was just amazed at the intensity of the fear and loathing that some people have for gays and lesbians. Day One was the organizational meeting that the Recall Group (now CRC) held, back in December, 2004. Those people were saying things I never imagined. It was like a mockery, I can't describe it, but these people were like cartoon characters, saying things I never thought real people would say.
Of course, I can imagine it now, two years later.
One of the first things you do is try to figure out what's behind it. I remember, early on, a reporter asking me, "What do you think motivates those people?" And I tried to answer the question, but I will never do that again, at least not with a reporter. Because there's nothing you can say that is both kind and accurate.
But you try to understand. Theory Number One, of course, that occurs to everyone, is that maybe these guys have issues themselves. Can you imagine getting up every day and just thinking about gay people and how disgusting they are? We have seen people who do this for a living.
For instance, these guys will say that people can stop being gay. All they have to do is make up their minds and then go through some kind of therapy and, usually, pray a bunch. The only question that matters, really is, do people choose their sexual orientation? You just saw Peter Sprigg try to skate around it, but the most common argument in all this is that the schools, by teaching about sexual orientation, will somehow encourage students to choose to be gay.
And you ask yourself, did I choose to be straight? And of course -- you don't choose that sort of thing.
Ah ... but maybe some people do. Maybe there are people who, when they got to be twelve or thirteen or so, figured out what was going on, and out of fear of the punishment of God and ugly teen peer pressure, "decided" to be straight. Planted themselves deep in the back of the closet. And just imagine how it must feel to live a pretend life, acting on impulses you don't feel, denying and ignoring the emotions you do feel, living the way people expect you to live instead of what would actually fulfill you. And imagine that there is somebody else in the world, who is living the way they feel, who is happily in love, happily gay -- wouldn't that just infuriate you?
At first I felt uncharitable thinking about it that way. It was kind of a personal response to an ideological position, and I hoped a better hypothesis would present itself.
It never did.
Instead, more and more confirmation piled up. It has turned out that a lot of the leaders of the anti-gay movement had stuff going on. We had a gay prostitute pretending to be a reporter signing into the White House on day passes, day after day, with no background check and no explanation. We had an anti-gay governor here, an anti-gay mayor here, anti-gay Congressmen chasing the pages ... It can't be coincidence.
So today, nobody is surprised to see that one of the most powerful gay-hating evangelists, Ted Haggard, minister of a 14,000-member congregation, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a guy with direct access to the President of the United States, has been seeing a boyfriend on the side for the past three years:
See, what these guys need to learn to do is just to shut up about it. I think it's sad, but not necessarily any of my business, if a married guy is sneaking out at night having affairs. You feel sorry for the wife, you feel sorry for the third person, you even feel sorry for this poor idiot who's got to keep his lies straight. Bad doggie.
But when he's going out in the daytime, pointing fingers at other people, calling them sinners and trying to deny them rights and respect, well, sorry dude, you're fair game.
We have definitely gone through all this before.
Wow, I just had a thought. Maybe there'd be some kind of rule that people could follow, maybe something that could guide them when they think somebody ought to be punished for being different from them. Hmm, how would you word this? Maybe ... Treat other people the way you'd want to be treated ... not bad, a little awkward ... how about Do to other people what you think you'd like them to do to you ... mmm, I'll bet I can think of something eventually, a golden idea. Let me think about this.
Then I got swept up in it, and, really, from Day One I was just amazed at the intensity of the fear and loathing that some people have for gays and lesbians. Day One was the organizational meeting that the Recall Group (now CRC) held, back in December, 2004. Those people were saying things I never imagined. It was like a mockery, I can't describe it, but these people were like cartoon characters, saying things I never thought real people would say.
Of course, I can imagine it now, two years later.
One of the first things you do is try to figure out what's behind it. I remember, early on, a reporter asking me, "What do you think motivates those people?" And I tried to answer the question, but I will never do that again, at least not with a reporter. Because there's nothing you can say that is both kind and accurate.
But you try to understand. Theory Number One, of course, that occurs to everyone, is that maybe these guys have issues themselves. Can you imagine getting up every day and just thinking about gay people and how disgusting they are? We have seen people who do this for a living.
For instance, these guys will say that people can stop being gay. All they have to do is make up their minds and then go through some kind of therapy and, usually, pray a bunch. The only question that matters, really is, do people choose their sexual orientation? You just saw Peter Sprigg try to skate around it, but the most common argument in all this is that the schools, by teaching about sexual orientation, will somehow encourage students to choose to be gay.
And you ask yourself, did I choose to be straight? And of course -- you don't choose that sort of thing.
Ah ... but maybe some people do. Maybe there are people who, when they got to be twelve or thirteen or so, figured out what was going on, and out of fear of the punishment of God and ugly teen peer pressure, "decided" to be straight. Planted themselves deep in the back of the closet. And just imagine how it must feel to live a pretend life, acting on impulses you don't feel, denying and ignoring the emotions you do feel, living the way people expect you to live instead of what would actually fulfill you. And imagine that there is somebody else in the world, who is living the way they feel, who is happily in love, happily gay -- wouldn't that just infuriate you?
At first I felt uncharitable thinking about it that way. It was kind of a personal response to an ideological position, and I hoped a better hypothesis would present itself.
It never did.
Instead, more and more confirmation piled up. It has turned out that a lot of the leaders of the anti-gay movement had stuff going on. We had a gay prostitute pretending to be a reporter signing into the White House on day passes, day after day, with no background check and no explanation. We had an anti-gay governor here, an anti-gay mayor here, anti-gay Congressmen chasing the pages ... It can't be coincidence.
So today, nobody is surprised to see that one of the most powerful gay-hating evangelists, Ted Haggard, minister of a 14,000-member congregation, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a guy with direct access to the President of the United States, has been seeing a boyfriend on the side for the past three years:
A former gay male escort is going public on the eve of Colorado voting on two ballot issues relating to gay marriage, claiming a three-year sexual relationship with a prominent Colorado Springs pastor who has been an outspoken opponent of same-sex unions.
A Denver resident identifying himself as Mike Jones said he had a sexual relationship with Ted Haggard, founder of the 14,000-member New Life Church and president of the National Association of Evangelicals.
During an appearance today on the Peter Boyles show on KHOW 630 AM radio, Jones said "After sitting back and contemplating this issue, the biggest reason (for exposing it) is being a gay man all my life, I have experience with my friends, some great sadness of people that were in a relationship through the years" and were not able to enjoy the same rights and privileges as a married man and woman.
"I felt it was my responsibility to my fellow brothers and sisters, that I had to take a stand, and I cannot sit back anymore and hear (what) to me is an anti-gay message." Gay escort claims sex tryst with preacher
See, what these guys need to learn to do is just to shut up about it. I think it's sad, but not necessarily any of my business, if a married guy is sneaking out at night having affairs. You feel sorry for the wife, you feel sorry for the third person, you even feel sorry for this poor idiot who's got to keep his lies straight. Bad doggie.
But when he's going out in the daytime, pointing fingers at other people, calling them sinners and trying to deny them rights and respect, well, sorry dude, you're fair game.
KUSA Channel 9 spoke to Haggard yesterday outside his Colorado Springs home, and he told a reporter Jones was lying.
"I’ve never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I’m steady with my wife. I’m faithful to my wife," said Haggard.
Jones on Thursday said that the denial is a lie.
"Yes he is (lying)," said Jones. "He had a relationship with me. We had gay sex."
We have definitely gone through all this before.
Wow, I just had a thought. Maybe there'd be some kind of rule that people could follow, maybe something that could guide them when they think somebody ought to be punished for being different from them. Hmm, how would you word this? Maybe ... Treat other people the way you'd want to be treated ... not bad, a little awkward ... how about Do to other people what you think you'd like them to do to you ... mmm, I'll bet I can think of something eventually, a golden idea. Let me think about this.
posted by JimK at 2:19 PM
18 Comments:
My, my...Peter Sprigg, Michelle Turner, and all the other random right wing trolls are awfully quiet tonight. Not much to say about the most powerful evangelical leader secretly doing the nasty with a gay hooker for 3 years?
Hehe. Sooner or later, they will all come out of the closet.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts...
1 Corinthians 4:5
anonymous writes,
My, my...Peter Sprigg, Michelle Turner, and all the other random right wing trolls are awfully quiet tonight.
Hummm, right wing trolls, eh? And who might you be?...opps, I almost forgot, you are anonymous. Charming...
I don't know about all those random folks, but I lead a busy life...I work full-time, go to school (taking a highly technical computer class that is turning out to be quite the challenge), help out around the house, run the afternoon school pick-up and drop-off, feed the cat...well, I think you get the idea.
So, what was I doing tonite? As luck would have it I was making calls on behalf of Amendment 43, which would establish in the Colorado State Constitution that marriage is a union between one man and one woman (something that has been now passed in 20...yes, count them, TWENTY States; and of those 20, only 3 States passed such measures with less than what is called a super-majority, that is 66% or greater...Michigan, 59%; Ohio, 62% and Oregon, 57%). I knocked off in time to watch The Office...
Will it make a difference? I don't know, but at least I did something.
Not much to say about the most powerful evangelical leader secretly doing the nasty with a gay hooker for 3 years?
I think this is what Democrats would call an "October Surprise" only it seems that political activists working for the defeat of Amendment 43 want to make certain that this surprise is sprung too late in the "game" to be damage controlled. Frankly I am not surprised...though it does play ever so conveniently into contemporary American social prejudices about Christian evangelical leaders (and after Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart, who would blame them - the principle reason foes of Amendment 43 took this route; nice touch).
Of course, the person making this accusation can substantiate it, can he? No, no...silly me, that is not the point of this now, is it? Look, I did not just fall off the turnip truck...
Hehe. Sooner or later, they will all come out of the closet.
Oh really? LOL. Hate to disappoint your emotional projectionist fantasy, but there is a reason...a principled reason...that some of us support marriage as it is still (marginally) understood. Oh, and a hint: it is not because we "hate" homosexuals, though telling yourself that makes it easier to dismiss us as just a bunch of haters, as Jim is so fond of repeating. We have a clear headed notion that marriage will not be strengthened by diluting its' meaning.
Oh, and what if after all of this it is discovered that this person is lying...what then? After all, if the allegation is true, we all know what will surely happen to Ted Haggard...and what penalty will Michael Jones pay if this is all a lie?
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts...
1 Corinthians 4:5
I will see you and raise you,
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:26,27
Raise? What makes one verse higher than the other?
Anonymous said...
Raise? What makes one verse higher than the other?
Good question...and at first I thought you had me cold in my tracks (OH NO! Mr. Bill!). And then I realized that probably unlike you, I actually believe that the Bible contains something more than the collective prejudices of those Hebrews, or those that followed them, that is those troglodyte evangelicals.
Do I believe the Bible contains the inerrant, infallible word of God? Hummm...tough call. Do I believe I can be made wiser be reading and reflecting upon what is contained in the Bible? You bet I do.
Rather than taking the John Shelby Spong School of Biblical Reinterpretation, I think the book has more of an influence if I attempt to understand what it say on its own terms.
Oryn my man, I'm sure you are busy these days, and I would be too if I were you.
Me? I made some popcorn, and I'm just sitting back watching the show as the Republican party and the religious right implodes before my very eyes.
You asked: "Oh, and what if after all of this it is discovered that this person is lying...what then? After all, if the allegation is true, we all know what will surely happen to Ted Haggard...and what penalty will Michael Jones pay if this is all a lie?"
Uh, I don't think Ted's boy-toy has too much to worry about. But Pastor Ted does:
Church Leader Says Haggard Admits To Some Indiscretions
A sudden about-face in the scandal facing New Life Church's pastor.
After Pastor Ted Haggard went public Wednesday night denying allegations of a homosexual affair, senior church officials told KKTV 11News Thursday evening, Pastor Ted Haggard has admitted to some of the claims made by a former male escort. The church's Acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions claimed by Mike Jones, but not all of them.
Hehe. I keep getting a visual of Pastor Ted bent over in his birthday suit mumbling something about damnation. I think he's a bottom...what do you think, Oryn?
Well, if the Bible is all correct and the word of God- I hope that you "true" believers are not eating shellfish, pork or ever sowing two crops in the same field. I just love how you make all sorts of claims- oh, the OT says this but the NT says this- so we don't have to keep those laws anymore- but being gay is a sin and eating at Red Lobster isn't.
Salon has an interesting article posted today on what's been keeping Orin so busy out there in Colorado:
"...as Musgrave's tight race in Colorado shows, there are clear crosscurrents that suggest Americans are no longer as interested in politicians who use homosexuality as a wedge issue. Recently, Dick Armey, the former GOP House majority leader, was quoted saying the religious right has become a group of "real nasty bullies" who have distracted from the conservative cause. A recent study by the Cato Institute argued that libertarian voters, who have sided with the Republicans in recent years, are increasingly defecting, in part because of the GOP's focus on social intolerance. "They have cooler feelings towards the Christian Coalition and warmer feelings towards gays and lesbians than do other voters," the Cato authors wrote about the libertarian vote, which is strong in the Rocky Mountain West.
The trend can be clearly seen in Colorado, home to James Dobson's Focus on the Family, where voters are increasingly turning to the Democratic Party and away from the divisive politics of homosexuality. "It has sort of worn itself out for some voters," said John Straayer, a political scientist at Colorado State University. "I think the Democrats' success is as much attributable to what the Republicans are doing than to what [Democrats] are doing themselves."
As in other states, Colorado voters are expected to pass a constitutional amendment to bar gay marriage on Tuesday. But in a sign of the times, polls suggest voters might also pass a referendum that will give gays and lesbians all the domestic partnership rights of heterosexual marriage.
Until recently, Colorado has been a bulwark of socially conservative Republicanism. In 1992, a majority of Coloradans -- 54 percent -- passed Amendment 2, a state constitutional change that prohibited laws to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination. Though courts later threw out the law, Colorado was dubbed "the hate state" by pundits across the country. But since then, clear signs of moderation have swept the state. Last year, Republican Gov. Bill Owens vetoed legislation to protect gays and lesbians against employment discrimination on the grounds that it duplicated current law. Still, in his veto letter, he harshly chastised members of his own party who had likened homosexuality to an "abomination" and pedophilia. "The discourse fell far short of what I consider to be an acceptable standard worthy of our great state," Owens wrote. "It was, instead, marked by a coarseness and insensitivity that was simply wrong."
More recently, retiring Rep. Joel Hefley, a Republican from Colorado Springs, has refused to endorse his party's candidate to take his seat, in part because the candidate, Doug Lamborn, and his supporters attacked his primary opponent for supporting the "homosexual agenda," a tactic Hefley called "sleazy." "
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/11/03/colorado/?source=newsletter
Sleazy indeed.
And while I've been enjoying seeing the hypocrisy of the religious right come to light, there's such a sad piece of this story that isn't being talked about - Pastor Ted Haggard's kids, and his wife.
Think about the enormity of what he's done to them. Pastor Parsley has the indecency to refer to this as an "indiscretion", but the damage that Pastor Ted has done to his family can never be undone.
So Oryn, you want to protect marriage, right? You can start by taking the logs out of your own community's eyes, and you might make some progress.
anonymous writes,
So Oryn, you want to protect marriage, right? You can start by taking the logs out of your own community's eyes, and you might make some progress.
And how might I do that? Oh, yeah, that's right...repeal all sodomy laws...opps, the US Supreme Court already did that!
Please, don't get me started on the numerous ways that heterosexuals have weakened marriage. The public record on this matter is clear...I just don't understand how further weakening of this important social institution helps gays and lesbians.
And perhaps you'll explain what we will tell polygamists once gay "marriage" is the law of the land, and they invoke the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution. Oh, and lest I leave anyone out, how about the man and his adult daughter? Remember, Equal Protection means just that...and who is to say no to just about anything that two consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own bedroom?
Are there no limits?
Essay on Man
by Alexander Pope
EPISTLE II:
Of the Nature and State of Man, With Respect to Himself as an Individual
v.1-4
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.
And Aunt Bea writes, quoting an online article from Salon,
As in other states, Colorado voters are expected to pass a constitutional amendment to bar gay marriage on Tuesday.
This is factually incorrect: Amendment 43 simply affirms what most still affirm - that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Again, if gays and lesbians desire marriage so much, it ought not to be any problem accepting it on the terms society offers to everyone.
Opps, I almost forgot...
Anonymous writes,
Oryn my man, I'm sure you are busy these days, and I would be too if I were you.
My name is Orin, as is clearly listed in every single post I make here...is that name so terribly difflicult for you to spell? Goodness, the last time I ran into this sort of behavior was in elementary school...
Dude, right about now, you've got much bigger fish to fry than worrying about my typos.
You seem quite fragile at the moment. Hehe.
Orin, I hate to say it(okay, I don't) but you are sounding close to my most favorite soon to be ex-senator Rick Santorum.
Nothing in letting gay people marry will affect heterosexual marriage. Just another fear tactic you people want to use. Nothing says that more than two people can marry so don't pull in the polygamy nonsense - as having anything to do with equality under the law. And thanks for pulling in the incest- see- next, you are Rick himself, with man and beast. A slippery slope but you put yourself on it. shame, shame!
Oryn knows good and well that the best way to protect marriage is to not crap on his and to encourage his fellow evangelicals to not crap on their marriages either.
Orin said "Amendment 43 simply affirms what most still affirm - that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Again, if gays and lesbians desire marriage so much, it ought not to be any problem accepting it on the terms society offers to everyone.
Orin, its pretty ironic for you to complain about the mispelling of your name being childish when you continue to exhibit such profoundly childish behavior yourself. You know if the tables were turned you would consider it a big problem that marriage was only offered to you on the basis that it be same sex. Grow up already, the colorado ammendment bans gays from marrying the only one that matters, each other, the one person they love most. That is despicable and hateful.
If you're so big on your bible you must be a supporter of polygamy yourself, it is after all a biblically respected form of marriage. The bible justifies polygamy, not equal marriage for same sex couples. The only rational reason to oppose polygamy is a secular one - with a 50% divorce rate obviously its hard enough to make relationships work with only two people in them let alone with 3 or more.
You must not be at all familiar with your bible if you have to question whether or not its inerrant. Its loaded with contradictions and scientific fallacies, obviously there is no way it is inerrant. Not only that but the god character is as immoral as can be, what kind of being eternally tortures those raised and taught by their parents to believe a different religion? What kind of god hardens people's hearts so they fight with each other? Only an unforgivably evil one. The contradictory and hateful bible is no basis for morality. Morality begins with doing whatever you want as long as you don't interfere in anyone else's right to do the same. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
No genuine person says marriage is weakened by allowing more people to take part in it. If the gay couple down the block gets married it in no way dilutes the meaning of your marriage - you aren't going to suddenly decide to get divorced when that happens, are you?
"Day One was the organizational meeting that the Recall Group (now CRC) held, back in December, 2004."
This untrue. There were plans to set up this blog prior to that.
"Those people were saying things I never imagined. It was like a mockery, I can't describe it, but these people were like cartoon characters, saying things I never thought real people would say."
Such as? I was there and don't remember anything like that.
This untrue. There were plans to set up this blog prior to that.
It's true, there was some email suggesting a web site in response to the planning of the meeting.
JimK
Orin Ryssman said:
"... I just don't understand how further weakening of this important social institution helps gays and lesbians."
Prove that allowing same-sex marriage "weakens" your definition of marriage, then maybe we can get somewhere.
You say you don't understand how it helps gays and lesbians? Do you not think all the benefits granted to married couples will help gay and lesbian couples? How do you define "help" then?
Orin Ryssman said:
"And perhaps you'll explain what we will tell polygamists once gay "marriage" is the law of the land, and they invoke the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution. Oh, and lest I leave anyone out, how about the man and his adult daughter? Remember, Equal Protection means just that...and who is to say no to just about anything that two consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own bedroom?"
So why isn't a father allowed to marry his daughter? Together they fit the definition of one man and one woman, assuming the daughter is of legal age to marry. Realise how the reason doesn't actually relate to gay couples in general?
Orin Ryssman said:
"This is factually incorrect: Amendment 43 simply affirms what most still affirm - that marriage is the union of one man and one woman."
It is not factually incorrect; it is merely a subset of different perspective. If marriage is the union of one man and one woman, then gay couples are forbidden from marrying, along with other arrangements that don't conform to that standard. It would be more appropriate and accurate to deem that statement as incomplete.
Orin Ryssman said:
"Again, if gays and lesbians desire marriage so much, it ought not to be any problem accepting it on the terms society offers to everyone."
Do you really think this? While I can agree with you that gays and lesbians are not being discriminated against, it's ignorant and stubborn to say it's not a problem for them accepting heterosexual marriage arrangements.
K.A.
Orin Ryssman said...
Opps, I almost forgot...
"Anonymous writes,
Oryn my man, I'm sure you are busy these days, and I would be too if I were you."
My name is Orin, as is clearly listed in every single post I make here...is that name so terribly difflicult for you to spell? Goodness, the last time I ran into this sort of behavior was in elementary school...
November 03, 2006 11:47 AM
Orin please try to refrain from accusing people who make typos of being immature. The fact that your last name has a "Y" where an "I" would normally go probably leads to the occasional misspelling of "Orin."
Some people just make typos from time to time and some make the same typo over and over again. It's not deliberate but it happens. For example, have you noticed that you spell "oops" as "opps" all the time and that in the comment above you misspelled "difficult"?
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