Parents and Friends
The CRC's minority report has a paragraph about us, and I want to comment on this. They say:
Look, PFOX isn't made up of "ex-gays," as much as they would like you to think so. No, it's in the name: Parents and Friends. These are people who wish gay people would change. Regina Griggs, Executive Director of PFOX, has a gay son. Not an "ex-gay" son. She wishes he would change, and she issues press releases about it, and the rightwing press picks them up and treats this as if her wishes were facts. That whole thing is tragic, if you ask me.
Richard Cohen, President of PFOX, claims to be ex-gay, and then spends his days cuddling gay men as "therapy." Sorry, everybody agrees, that is one creepy dude.
Uh, any others?
Oh yeah, I remember PFOX brought a guy down from a church in Rahway, New Jersey once who told the school board he was "ex-gay." I didn't say anything bad about him, just noted that they had to go pretty far to find one.
Oh. Reverend Grace. She was at the school board meeting yesterday. I like Reverend Grace. She has a story -- went off the deep end, living as a lesbian, dressing like a man, doing, by her account, a lot of drugs, cocaine especially, and going wild sexually. I totally sympathize with her realization that she needed to straighten up and fly right. Maybe she goes overboard with the whole mission thing, trying to get other people to stop being gay, but I understand that this was a good turnaround for her personally, before an almost-certain major crash-and-burn. As fanatics go, she's cool, I understand where she's coming from, and wish her the best.
PFOX is straight people telling gay people how to live. That's what I don't like. They incessantly whine that we, and especially I, don't respect "ex-gays" and we "act like they don't exist." Well, if they exist -- where are they? All we see is straight people talking about it. And it bugs me.
I don't know, and I don't care, if somebody's sexual orientation changes. I don't even know what that means, and the people who advocate it aren't very clear either. If it happens, it does not happen very often; it is certainly not a significant aspect of sexual orientation. It's an ideological fiction, or at least exaggeration, created by people with certain religious beliefs to con gay people into going back into the closet.
Anyway, who is the other committee member they're talking about?
Two of the committee members appointed to develop the lesson plans show outright disrespect of the ex-gay community while promoting tolerance for gays and transgenders. One member [look ma, they're talking about me] represents a group that actively promotes disrespect towards the ex-gay community, as evidenced by their statements against ex-gays on their blog, protests at ex-gay events in Montgomery County, published letters to the editor belittling former homosexuals, and stated opposition to ex-gay organizations participating in MCPS's flyer distribution program for all community organizations. Their hostility to former homosexuals is evidence that ex-gays need to be part of MCPS's new "respect sexual differences" lesson plans. Ex-gays are the only sexual orientation group that does not receive respect and tolerance.
Look, PFOX isn't made up of "ex-gays," as much as they would like you to think so. No, it's in the name: Parents and Friends. These are people who wish gay people would change. Regina Griggs, Executive Director of PFOX, has a gay son. Not an "ex-gay" son. She wishes he would change, and she issues press releases about it, and the rightwing press picks them up and treats this as if her wishes were facts. That whole thing is tragic, if you ask me.
Richard Cohen, President of PFOX, claims to be ex-gay, and then spends his days cuddling gay men as "therapy." Sorry, everybody agrees, that is one creepy dude.
Uh, any others?
Oh yeah, I remember PFOX brought a guy down from a church in Rahway, New Jersey once who told the school board he was "ex-gay." I didn't say anything bad about him, just noted that they had to go pretty far to find one.
Oh. Reverend Grace. She was at the school board meeting yesterday. I like Reverend Grace. She has a story -- went off the deep end, living as a lesbian, dressing like a man, doing, by her account, a lot of drugs, cocaine especially, and going wild sexually. I totally sympathize with her realization that she needed to straighten up and fly right. Maybe she goes overboard with the whole mission thing, trying to get other people to stop being gay, but I understand that this was a good turnaround for her personally, before an almost-certain major crash-and-burn. As fanatics go, she's cool, I understand where she's coming from, and wish her the best.
PFOX is straight people telling gay people how to live. That's what I don't like. They incessantly whine that we, and especially I, don't respect "ex-gays" and we "act like they don't exist." Well, if they exist -- where are they? All we see is straight people talking about it. And it bugs me.
I don't know, and I don't care, if somebody's sexual orientation changes. I don't even know what that means, and the people who advocate it aren't very clear either. If it happens, it does not happen very often; it is certainly not a significant aspect of sexual orientation. It's an ideological fiction, or at least exaggeration, created by people with certain religious beliefs to con gay people into going back into the closet.
Anyway, who is the other committee member they're talking about?
posted by JimK at 11:12 AM
26 Comments:
Problem is, no matter what example you're given, you'll find some rationale to discredit their story. If you found someone who's changed, they're really bisexual or they never were really gay or they just think they aren't attracted anymore because the religion told them they aren't. Why don't you just support everyone's right to have their own story heard?
As for this, "never heard of anyone who's actually changed" look at the People Can Change website. They have many signed testimonies of people who explain everything they went through.
Health officials back circumcision in AIDS fight
By Robert Bazell
Chief science and health correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 6 minutes ago
Circumcising adult men is an effective way to stop transmission of the virus that causes AIDS. NBC News has learned that the National Institutes of Health will announce at Noon ET Wednesday that two clinical trials in Africa have been stopped because an independent monitoring board determined the treatment was so effective that it would be unethical to continue the experiment.
"People Can Change website"
I read this website and came away with the distinct impression that claims of orientation change are illusory, and based on strong religious feelings. Didn't make me want to be an ex-gay.
rrjr
yes, personal testimonies are only valid if they support lunatic fringe gay advocacy groups
otherwise, their stories are a little suspicious
we get it, Robert
and we also get why there can never be proof anyone has changed
it's called unfounded bias
Over on my blog, I posted about the most recent evangelical minister to be outed. The post includes links to a number of people talking about how "reparative therapy" doesn't work. It also links back to an earlier post of mine addressing how many "ex-gay" organizations are abandoning the idea that people can change their sexual orientation.
That said, I have one question about the CRC people. Do any of them actually have children in Montgomery County schools?
Kids. I'm giving you guys a early present and taking a Christmas recess now.
So Robert, Randi, David, Dana, et al have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Chillin' Kwaanza and whatever else.
Jim, you have fun worshipping Odin and the rest of your Norse gods.
Feliz Navidad!
Yes, Michelle Turner's kids attend MCPS.
We really should be able to get beyond this. The extreme right has already recognized that sexual orientation is innate or nearly so, and that you can't change your feelings or your sense of identity. The only thing you can change is your behavior. Period.
If some people want to act straight or even be celibate, then fine. There's no argument here, as long as it's not presented as necessary, being gay or trans is not presented as a disease, and people do not cover up that these conversions are almost always religiously motivated.
Honestly now, this "ex-gay" thing strikes me as a tad goofy...and if anyone would be sympathetic I would think it would be me. Gee, I sure hope those pushing inclusion of "ex-gays" would take a step back, a deep breath and move on...
With that said, I think TTF et al that is pushing for inclusion of gays and lesbians in what is suppose to be a sex ed curriculum ought to carefully consider what pushing sexual orientation will mean for support of public education. First off, while there is anecdotal stories here and there, there does not appear to be evidence supporting a hostile school environment for gay, lesbian, and questioning youth. I know, I know...this gets trotted out, but when challenged it appears that there is little hard evidence of an environment that is all that much more difflicult than what your average high school student has it.
Dana writes,
We really should be able to get beyond this. The extreme right has already recognized that sexual orientation is innate or nearly so, and that you can't change your feelings or your sense of identity.
"Innate or nearly so"...deeply ingrained habits can and are so described.
Anything involving the physical body, when habituated, can become become a part of ones personality. Here is a personal example...I have chewed on my nails for as long as I can remember. So, if I stop am I still a nail-chewer at heart?
I am not trying to trivialize or dismiss those dealing with issues of sexual orientation, but it does make me wonder.
The only thing you can change is your behavior. Period.
And what if a gay "gene" is found...would you support the right of a woman to abort a gay baby in utero? Or, how about a cure, such as is covered in the third X-Men movie?
Orin,
A few quick comments here that are pertinent to our community in Montgomery County.
First, pressing for information on sexual orientation in MCPS is not going to undermine support for public education here because this is a very, very liberal progressive community and the small number of families who do not like the approach have already already abandoned the public schools for a host of reasons or have (like Michelle Turner's family) never permitted their children to take the family life and human sexuality unit even before there was discussion about including information on sexual orientation. I would press for it even if we would run such risks, but, thankfully, that is not a factor in our community.
Second, sex ed in Montgomery County is not simply about the mechanics. Rather, it is part of a comprehensive health education program; sexuality is a big part of children's emotional development. So the deafening silence we have had in the past regarding sexual orientation has been a real deficiency in our curriculum. When a curriculum assumes that everyone is heterosexual, that inevitably excludes and does damage to those who are not.
Finally, as for the harassment issue, everyone with a gay child knows about the kind of harassment that occurs. It may well be that the harassment and bullying is diminishing, but the bullying issue is not the only reason for having the information in the health classes. As I stated in my testimony before the BOE yesterday, "Even if all bullying were to cease, gay and lesbian students would still have concerns" that are addressed by conveying the simple statements such as the fact that the medical community has determined that homosexuality is not a disease or mental disorder. Most adolescents want to "fit in," to be like everyone else. Feeling isolated is very hard on kids emotionally. Letting children know that they are "OK" if they happen to be gay will go a long way toward making it easier for them to be happy and emotionally stable. They will not, like the sad minister in Colorado,have to spend their youth and adulthood crying every night because they are gay.
I hope this will give you a clearer perspective on what is going on in our community and why.
David writes,
I hope this will give you a clearer perspective on what is going on in our community and why.
Yes, it does...thanks for the reply.
Orin said " while there is anecdotal stories here and there, there does not appear to be evidence supporting a hostile school environment for gay, lesbian, and questioning youth.".
Well, Orin you didn't look very hard, not that that comes as any surprise. Taking the first link I came across it took me seconds to come up with the following:
Approximately 28% of gay and lesbian youth drop out of high school because of discomfort (due to verbal and physical abuse) in the school environment. ---Remafedi, Gary. (1987). "Male Homosexuality: The Adolescent's Perspective." Pediatrics, Issue 79. pp. 326-337.
Gay students hear anti-gay slurs as often as 26 times each day; faculty intervention occurs in only about 3% of those cases.---National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute Report. (1991). Washington, DC.
In Seattle, 34% of students who described themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual reported being the target of anti-gay harassment or violence at school or on the way to or from school, compared to 6% of heterosexual students.---The 1995 Seattle Teen Health Risk Survey. Over 8,400 Seattle high school students completed the survey.
Gay and lesbian youth live, work and attempt to learn in constant fear of physical harm at school.---Eversole, T. "Addressing Specific Risk Factors Among Lesbians and Gays.' Counseling Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Youth Training Manual. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.
27% of gay and lesbian youth have been physically hurt by another student.---Anthony D'Augelli, unpublished study, 1997. Studied 194 lesbian, gay and bisexual youth aged 14 to 21 attending social and support groups in fourteen metropolitan areas.
In 53 schools in Washington State, 77 incidents of anti-gay harassment and violence have been reported in the past 3 years, with 34 of these incidents (44%) serious enough to warrant possible criminal allegations. ---Safe Schools Anti-Violence Documentation Project, Washington State. Third Annual Report, 1996.
In Michigan, 28% of school personnel surveyed determined their school environment to be emotionally unsafe for gay and lesbian youth. ---1997 survey of 300 superintendents, school counselors and psychologists in public and private schools in five Michigan counties, conducted by the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Teacher's Network.
Gays and lesbians are the most frequent victims of hate crimes.
Gays and lesbians are at least 7 times more likely to be crime victims than heterosexual people.---SIECUS Fact Sheet on Comprehensive Sexuality Education. (February/March 1993). "Sexual Orientation and Identity.” SIECUS Report.
At least 75% of crimes against gays and lesbians are not reported to anyone. In a study of 5 metropolitan areas (including Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York City, and San Francisco), there were 1,833 [reported) incidents of anti-gay and anti-lesbian crimes, which was a 31% increase over the previous year.---National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute Report. (1991). Washington, DC.
No doubt if I had spent even 15 minutes or 1/2 an hour at it I'd have come across much much more. I really hate it when you act like an authority and you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
I feel that we are very kind to straight people(which if there were ex-gays- they would be straight- or else they are gay). As a straight person married to another straight person, I have never felt any negativity from TTF.
Andrea Kline
Heterosexual
"We really should be able to get beyond this. The extreme right has already recognized that sexual orientation is innate or nearly so, and that you can't change your feelings or your sense of identity."
I don't know about the extreme right but the moderate conservatives hasn't fallen under this errant idea.
"The only thing you can change is your behavior. Period."
This is bad grammar. People are able to change their feelings if convinced the feelings are harmful or wrong. Get real. They need counseling and encouragement.
"If some people want to act straight or even be celibate, then fine. There's no argument here, as long as it's not presented as necessary, being gay or trans is not presented as a disease,"
Again, you're grouping these two concepts inaccurately. Trans are clearly mentally defective. The APA says so and, thus, David agrees. Two parts of the body are out of sync. It doesn't do the sufferers from this condition any good to pretend nothing's wrong. You yourself had surgery because of the problem. If you want to discuss it, you should discuss the merits of each philosophy about which part of the body to repair. Don't pretend everything is hunky dory.
"and people do not cover up that these conversions are almost always religiously motivated."
I think if you were to teach that the only people who report changing are those who undergo religious counseling, some of your friends here would sue the schools for supporting religion.
Randi...thank you for that information.
By the way, Terrance who commented above is in the running for the Weblog Award for Best LGBT Weblog. His great blog is Republic of T -- I've quoted him here before, he's a local guy and a friend of the TTF family. Vote for him
Anon (Retta?) writes, addressing Dana:
"Trans are clearly mentally defective. The APA says so and, thus, David agrees. Two parts of the body are out of sync. It doesn't do the sufferers from this condition any good to pretend nothing's wrong. You yourself had surgery because of the problem. If you want to discuss it, you should discuss the merits of each philosophy about which part of the body to repair. Don't pretend everything is hunky dory."
The point, which the Anons typically refuse to ignore, is that to the extent being trans is a "disorder" -- and it can be when there is a severe disconnect between the brain and the "equipment" (I am sure I have oversimplified this, and I apologize for doing so) -- there is a legitimate treatment. As pointed out in this space within the last month, gender reassignment surgery is a solution accepted by the mainstream medical community (unlike "reparative therapy", which is not). There are huge safeguards against someone prematurely or blithely taking this big step. But the point is that when being trans creates an emotionally disabling situation, there is appropriate hormonal and surgical treatment.
As evidenced by posts in this space and by testimony by CRC people at Public Comments before the Board of Education, the Anons simply assert the "disorder" part and ignore the treatment part. It seems to me that they want to play on people's discomfort with the unfamiliar to characterize trans people as freaks. Shame on them.
Anonymous at December 13, 2006 8:47 PM said "People are able to change their feelings if convinced the feelings are harmful or wrong. Get real. They need counseling and encouragement.
".
Anonymous your baseless claims don't impress anyone. All the evidence points to the fact that people cannot change their same sex attractions, just their behavior Even most "exgays" admit this when pressed. All the major physical and mental health organizations oppose "counselling" aimed at changing sexual orientation. If you want to attempt to suppress your same sex attractions go ahead, but don't expect anyone else to do so for your sake.
How can I tell if a person is a homosexual? There is no test- Only the person's word that he has those feelings. There is no test for former homosexual either, only that person's word that he has changed his feelings. So if one does not believe the former homosexual why believe the homosexual?Works both ways.
anonymouth wrote,There is no test for former homosexual either, only that person's word that he has changed his feelings.
Since the person is straight and always was then why would anyone test it?
Thank you, David, for responding to Orin.
First to Orin -- I appreciate your thoughtful remarks. As Randi has pointed out, there are plenty of studies re: school harrassment, which form the basis for many states' anti-bullying laws, including here in Maryland.
As a trans girl myself, I can tell you that I felt extremely uncomfortable in high school, and I was deeply closeted. When I transitioned a few years ago my younger son was teased for a few days before he put a stop to it and demanded the bullies stop -- he's 6'3" and built like a linebacker, so he got the bullies' attention. Not everyone is so fortunate.
The discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity takes up only 90 minutes of a semester-long curriculum. Let's get a life, shall we?
"Innate or nearly so" refers to the rapid brain growth that occurs in utero and the first year of life. If we didn't have such big heads we'd have another year of gestation. It's often difficult to separate the brain development that occurs in utero from that which occurs in the immediate post-natal period.
I am not making this stuff up -- there is real science that deals with issues such as this. The classic analogy is handedness, and we all agree that is not simply an engrained habit. You can force yourself to use your other hand, but you will rarely ever develop the same degree of dexterity as with your naturally dominant hand.
As for a "gay gene," I doubt one single gene will ever be found. There are dozens and dozens of genes involved in sexual development, and it's unlikely to be possible to manipulate one gene without causing other consequences. If it happens, we'll deal with it then. People today can abort for a host of reasons, and in a free country they're entitled to do so.
A developing scientific analogy would be the emergence of genetic analysis on Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence and its association with some very rare and deadly diseases such as Tay-Sach's. We already know that certain genetic variations protect against infectious diseases such as malaria (sickle cell) and CF, cystic fibrosis (salmonella typhi). It appears that one dose of a deleterious recessive gene increases intelligence while two doses causes death, prbably due to variations in myelinization of brain neurons.
As for a "cure," well, I spent decades praying for a cure, and researching treatments for myself. I would have welcomed a cure, but there are no cures for being intersex and/or transsexual other than to match the body to the brain. This is no longer in dispute, Paul McHugh aside -- a gendered brain is not amenable to psychotherapy. That's all. It has been tried ad nauseum, and it doesn't work, no matter how much Retta wants to believe it. What does work is social and physical transition, and it works incredibly well, even in the face of oftentimes great hostility.
Retta, you're actually calling me mentally defective? How laughable can you get? I never said "nothing's wrong." I lived in misery for half a century because something was very wrong. And I finally made it right. How many times must I write that the treatments you support don't work? I have said it many times, that these are congenital developmental variations or anomalies which should be treated like others of the same class. You don't send a child with a cleft lip to talk therapy; you should not impose that nonsense on a trans child either, simply because you're the one who is uncomfortable.
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with my grammar, either.
Thank you, David, for responding to Orin.
First to Orin -- I appreciate your thoughtful remarks. As Randi has pointed out, there are plenty of studies re: school harrassment, which form the basis for many states' anti-bullying laws, including here in Maryland.
As a trans girl myself, I can tell you that I felt extremely uncomfortable in high school, and I was deeply closeted. When I transitioned a few years ago my younger son was teased for a few days before he put a stop to it and demanded the bullies stop -- he's 6'3" and built like a linebacker, so he got the bullies' attention. Not everyone is so fortunate.
The discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity takes up only 90 minutes of a semester-long curriculum. Let's get a life, shall we?
"Innate or nearly so" refers to the rapid brain growth that occurs in utero and the first year of life. If we didn't have such big heads we'd have another year of gestation. It's often difficult to separate the brain development that occurs in utero from that which occurs in the immediate post-natal period.
I am not making this stuff up -- there is real science that deals with issues such as this. The classic analogy is handedness, and we all agree that is not simply an engrained habit. You can force yourself to use your other hand, but you will rarely ever develop the same degree of dexterity as with your naturally dominant hand.
As for a "gay gene," I doubt one single gene will ever be found. There are dozens and dozens of genes involved in sexual development, and it's unlikely to be possible to manipulate one gene without causing other consequences. If it happens, we'll deal with it then. People today can abort for a host of reasons, and in a free country they're entitled to do so.
A developing scientific analogy would be the emergence of genetic analysis on Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence and its association with some very rare and deadly diseases such as Tay-Sach's. We already know that certain genetic variations protect against infectious diseases such as malaria (sickle cell) and CF, cystic fibrosis (salmonella typhi). It appears that one dose of a deleterious recessive gene increases intelligence while two doses causes death, prbably due to variations in myelinization of brain neurons.
As for a "cure," well, I spent decades praying for a cure, and researching treatments for myself. I would have welcomed a cure, but there are no cures for being intersex and/or transsexual other than to match the body to the brain. This is no longer in dispute, Paul McHugh aside -- a gendered brain is not amenable to psychotherapy. That's all. It has been tried ad nauseum, and it doesn't work, no matter how much Retta wants to believe it. What does work is social and physical transition, and it works incredibly well, even in the face of oftentimes great hostility.
Retta, you're actually calling me mentally defective? How laughable can you get? I never said "nothing's wrong." I lived in misery for half a century because something was very wrong. And I finally made it right. How many times must I write that the treatments you support don't work? I have said it many times, that these are congenital developmental variations or anomalies which should be treated like others of the same class. You don't send a child with a cleft lip to talk therapy; you should not impose that nonsense on a trans child either, simply because you're the one who is uncomfortable.
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with my grammar, either.
Dana and David
Just to give credit or discredit, depending on your perspective, where it is due, Retta did not write the comment you're responding to.
I'll have time for some comments later but, right now, let me just say that here again Dana seems to use the terms gay and trans interchangeably. They are different concepts, are they not?
Anonymous at December 13, 2006 11:41 PM said "So if one does not believe the former homosexual why believe the homosexual?Works both ways.".
The reason is obvious. Gays are despised and oppressed. When people lie they do it to make themselves look better to others and to gain advantage. There is no incentive to lie and say one is gay when that results in abuse and one looking worse to others. There is however a great advantage to lie and say one is not gay when that avoids the abuse and makes one acceptable to all others. Claims to not be gay are suspect, claims to be gay are not. People who admit to something seen to be a failing are credible.
Anonymous at December 14, 2006 9:18 AM said "Since the person is straight and always was then why would anyone test it?".
People haven't had gay lovers throughout recorded history and across all societies because they are straight. Plethysmography proves some people are gay.
Anonymous at December 14, 2006 9:53 AM
Anonymous, I don't know where you get the idea that Dana uses the terms gay and trans interchangeably - I haven't seen any instance of that. Both are abused and discriminated against by traditional society but that's not using the terms interchangeably.
Anon writes:
"Just to give credit or discredit, depending on your perspective, where it is due, Retta did not write the comment you're responding to."
Want to change your "handle" to AnonNotRetta then?
I am still amazed that anyone can claim that I use "gay" and "trans" interchangeably.
So as to be as clear as possible, please point out to me the instances where you feel I'm unclear. I do not want to give that impression, and I am certainly the last person who writes for this blog who would make that mistake.
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