Sentinel: Teachers Are Unhappy About Flyers
We are hearing from more teachers who are very unhappy (that phrase doesn't do justice) about having to pass out anti-gay PFOX literature in their classrooms. One wrote us yesterday to ask us about the idea of opting out for moral reasons. Well, of course we don't know what the rules are for the teachers, but we put her in touch with someone who can work with her. (Of course, it would be interesting to see teachers engage in peaceful civil disobedience across the district, maybe they could include a few minutes of discussion of Thoreau in class.)
This seems like an especially bad thing to do to teachers -- a teacher's job isn't easy or overcompensated to begin with. I have the feeling most of them teach because they love it, because they care about the kids. And then to add something insulting like this to it, making them hand out literature that is just morally repulsive, something that is bad for students, pointing them to misleading, unhealthful information -- no, they're not happy about this.
Here's a new story from The Sentinel.
The schools have to either hand out everybody's materials, or nobody's, according to the courts. The problem is that students' backpacks are considered, legally, to be a kind of "public forum." In class, no such rule applies, as the CRC will quickly find out if they sue on the grounds of viewpoint discrimination in the new curriculum. But the judge says flyers that are sent home follow a different standard.
I suppose the good news is that kids aren't paying any attention to it, in general. But, you know, there are particular kids, the gay ones specifically, who could be tucking this away, wondering if there's anything to it. And that's what's criminal about the whole deal. Because ... there isn't anything to it, and PFOX shouldn't mislead them.
Heh. There's no science saying that people can pray away the gay, sorry. No matter how badly Ms. Griggs wishes her own son was straight, it's not a choice.
Wow, that sounds good, doesn't it -- the "right to selfdetermination." Does she think people can selfdetermine their sexual orientation? Sounds like it.
They can't. Oh, they have "the right" to try, but it doesn't work.
I wasn't going to include the whole article, but I couldn't help myself.
Schools can hand out materials four times a year. That means that a kid who goes to high school here for four years will be handed sixteen of these PFOX flyers. In the same four years, he or she will sit through two 45-minute classes that discuss sexual orientation.
This seems like an especially bad thing to do to teachers -- a teacher's job isn't easy or overcompensated to begin with. I have the feeling most of them teach because they love it, because they care about the kids. And then to add something insulting like this to it, making them hand out literature that is just morally repulsive, something that is bad for students, pointing them to misleading, unhealthful information -- no, they're not happy about this.
Here's a new story from The Sentinel.
Students, teachers oppose PFOX fliers
By Contessa Crisostomo Staff Writer
FEBRUARY 1, 2007 THE MONTGOMERY COUNTY SENTINEL
Teachers, students and parents are upset about recent fliers being distributed in county high schools by an organization representing Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays (PFOX). Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) said they have heard from several people who are upset by these fliers.
"We have explained to them what the school system's situation is given the Evangelism lawsuit," said David Fishback of PFLAG.
Fishback was referring to the lawsuit that the Child Evangelism Fellowship filed against Montgomery County Public Schools after the school system denied the Christian group access to distribute fliers to students in their backpacks. The Child Evangelism Fellowship won the case leading the school system to revise their flier policy, which allows any non-profit organization to distribute fliers to schools at certain times during the year as long as there is a disclaimer that says, "These materials are neither sponsored nor endorsed by the Board of Education of Montgomery county, the superintendent, or this school."
The schools have to either hand out everybody's materials, or nobody's, according to the courts. The problem is that students' backpacks are considered, legally, to be a kind of "public forum." In class, no such rule applies, as the CRC will quickly find out if they sue on the grounds of viewpoint discrimination in the new curriculum. But the judge says flyers that are sent home follow a different standard.
Hilary Davies, a county public school teacher, said she was upset when she saw the fliers. She said she does not agree with the views of PFOX, who claim that homosexuality is a choice.
"PFOX puts forward the view that it's possible to convert or choose not to be homosexual; that's very harmful to young people," said Davies. "It distressed me to see this go to students altogether."
She said she didn't think many students paid much attention to the fliers because they do not understand the issues surrounding it. A student told her that most students threw them away, she said.
"They're allowed to send fliers because it's a public forum, therefore they're subject to first amendment rights, but the curriculum is not. If PFOX is trying to use this to assert opinion in the curriculum, as a teacher it's underhanded, and I disagree a great deal," said Davies.
I suppose the good news is that kids aren't paying any attention to it, in general. But, you know, there are particular kids, the gay ones specifically, who could be tucking this away, wondering if there's anything to it. And that's what's criminal about the whole deal. Because ... there isn't anything to it, and PFOX shouldn't mislead them.
PFLAG is also distributing their own fliers to "provide accurate info from schools that kids and families need," according to Fishback.
On the other hand, Regina Griggs, executive director of PFOX, said they have not received any negative phone calls.
"Sometimes people who are not happy with things may make statement, but it might just be one person," she said. "We had an email from a teacher who I think was misinformed and needs a science lesson."
Heh. There's no science saying that people can pray away the gay, sorry. No matter how badly Ms. Griggs wishes her own son was straight, it's not a choice.
Griggs said PFOX has never had a problem passing out brochures to teachers, counselors and parents who she said requested them. This is the first time they began distributing fliers countywide.
This controversy follows the Board of Education's approval of a new sex-education curriculum, which includes the addition of information about sexual orientation and the revision of a condom demonstration video. Before the board made their decision, members of PFOX urged board members to include information about ex-gays in the curriculum but were denied.
"The purpose of the flier is to get the information out that change is possible, that we want children to get information that allows them and shows individuals the right to selfdetermination," said Griggs.
Wow, that sounds good, doesn't it -- the "right to selfdetermination." Does she think people can selfdetermine their sexual orientation? Sounds like it.
They can't. Oh, they have "the right" to try, but it doesn't work.
Griggs said she disagrees with the school board's decision to include in the curriculum that homosexuality is innate, and she believes the students should at least be presented with the information about ex-gays and look up the rest.
PFOX's flier gives the contact information for the organization and says they can provide "local support groups for parents, helpful information for LGBTQX students and families, ex-gay speakers, teen brochures, youth clubs for all, information on tolerance for the ex-gay community."
In PFLAG's flier contains a list of frequently asked questions and answers for parents with gay children. Fishback said one way to counteract PFOX's statements would be for the board to revisit a list of recommendations to include in the curriculum stating that homosexuality is not a choice or a disease. "[It's] good, solid information from major medical groups," said Fishback.
Davies agreed that information about homosexuality should be in the curriculum.
"One of things that people involved in this issue need to realize is how much education we need on this topic and how little people understand about it," said Davies. "I felt it's much more productive to have more in the curriculum about sexual orientation. Most students are pretty uneducated about this."
I wasn't going to include the whole article, but I couldn't help myself.
Schools can hand out materials four times a year. That means that a kid who goes to high school here for four years will be handed sixteen of these PFOX flyers. In the same four years, he or she will sit through two 45-minute classes that discuss sexual orientation.
posted by JimK at 7:43 AM
33 Comments:
"Schools can hand out materials four times a year. That means that a kid who goes to high school here for four years will be handed sixteen of these PFOX flyers. In the same four years, he or she will sit through two 45-minute classes that discuss sexual orientation."
And, also, hear daily announcements inviting he, she or combo package to the next meeting of the Gay-Straight Club.
"We are hearing from more teachers who are very unhappy (that phrase doesn't do justice) about having to pass out anti-gay PFOX literature in their classrooms."
Not surprising considering that acknowledged gays are represented at a higher rate in public school faculties than in the general population.
PFOX literature is "anti-gay" only to idealogues. The goal is actually to help gays who want to change.
"One wrote us yesterday to ask us about the idea of opting out for moral reasons."
Why don't they just do their jobs and, at the same time, remind the students about the disclaimer the county puts on the package?
Personally, I wouldn't object if the teachers stated that they disagreed with the material as long as pro-family teachers were allowed to express their personal opinions too.
Also, if PFLAG is so apalled, why don't they make up their own handout? Oh, that's right, they already do.
"Wow, that sounds good, doesn't it -- the "right to selfdetermination." Does she think people can selfdetermine their sexual orientation? Sounds like it."
Actually, all gays are really bisexuals. Through counseling, they can all learn to enjoy and a maintain a heterosexual lifestyle. It's possible some same sex attraction will persist to varying degrees but the point is they'll have a choice and will be able to make a correct moral decision and still have a full and happy life. No different from married guys who are tempted to commit adultery.
"literature that is just morally repulsive, something that is bad for students, pointing them to misleading, unhealthful information"
Don't hold back, Jim.
Let us know how you really feel.
"There's no science saying that people can pray away the gay, sorry."
There's no science saying it's innate either. That's the whole problem, gay advocates have twisted science to their own purposes.
"Fishback said one way to counteract PFOX's statements would be for the board to revisit a list of recommendations to include in the curriculum stating that homosexuality is not a choice or a disease. "[It's] good, solid information from major medical groups," said Fishback."
Wrong, David. It's not information, it's opinion.
The superintendent made a very savvy choice to exclude the material because it would have been very easy to challenge in court as viewpoint discrimination.
"In class, no such rule applies, as the CRC will quickly find out if they sue on the grounds of viewpoint discrimination in the new curriculum."
The judge said it did two years ago. That's why the curriculum devised then was thrown out.
Should be amusing to hear the county tell the judge he doesn't understand the law.
It's Mr. Fishback to you, Anon, you jackass anti-family anti-Americans hateful son-of-a-bitch.
Love, Andrew
P.S. sorry Jim, had to get that off my chest.
Explain this!
Venus Magazine, a publication that for 13 years targeted the Black gay and lesbian community, is now a voice for the ex-gay movement.
Its publisher, Charlene Cothran, recently announced that she has been “redeemed”; is no longer a lesbian; and is changing the mission and direction of the magazine. On the Web site she writes, “As the publisher of a 13-year-old periodical [ that ] targets Black gays and lesbians, I have had the opportunity to publicly address thousands, influencing closeted people to ‘come out’ and stand up for them selves, which is particularly difficult in the African-American community.
“But now, I must come out of the closet again. I have recently experienced the power of change that came over me once I completely surrendered to the teachings of Jesus Christ. As a believe of the word of God, I fully accept and have always known that same-sex relationships are not what God intended for us.”
Explain it?
Now you can finally have a blog to read! (Of course, I always understood Jesus's mission as one of peace, love, and acceptance, but you can certainly read that to mean that you should be hateful and intolerant of gays.)
Explain this !
("Childhood Family Correlates of Heterosexual and Homosexual Marriages: A National Cohort Study of Two Million Danes," by Morten Frisch and Anders Hviid, Archives of Sexual Behavior Oct 13, 2006; [E-publication ahead of print])
A major study is about to be published in the prestigious peer-reviewed journal, Archives of Sexual Behavior, which provides striking new evidence for the influence of childhood family factors on sexual-orientation development.
The study used a population-based sample of 2,000,355 native-born Danes between the ages of 18 and 49. Denmark -- a country noted for its tolerance of a wide variety of alternative lifestyles, including homosexual partnerships, and the first country to legalize gay marriage.
With access to the "virtually complete registry coverage of the entire Danish population," the study sample therefore lacked the problematic selection bias that has plagued many previous studies on sexual orientation.
The following are findings from this new data:
1. Men who marry homosexually are more likely to have been raised in a family with unstable parental relationships -- particularly, absent or unknown fathers and divorced parents.
2. Findings on women who marry homosexually were less pronounced, but were still associated with a childhood marked by a broken family. The rates of same-sex marriage "were elevated among women who experienced maternal death during adolescence, women with short duration of parental marriage, and women with long duration of mother-absent cohabitation with father."
3. Men and women with "unknown fathers" were significantly less likely to marry a person of the opposite sex than were their peers with known fathers.
4. Men who experienced parental death during childhood or adolescence "had significantly lower heterosexual marriage rates than peers whose parents were both alive on their 18th birthday. The younger the age of the father's death, the lower was the likelihood of heterosexual marriage."
5. "The shorter the duration of parental marriage, the higher was the likelihood of homosexual marriage...homosexual marriage rates were 36% and 26% higher among men and women, respectively, who experienced parental divorce after less than six years of marriage, than among peers whose parents remained married for all 18 years of childhood and adolescence."
6. "Men whose parents divorced before their 6th birthday were 39% more likely to marry homosexually than peers from intact parental marriages."
7. "Men whose cohabitation with both parents ended before age 18 years had significantly (55% -76%) higher rates of homosexual marriage than men who cohabited with both parents until 18 years."
8. The mother's age was directly linked to the likelihood of homosexual marriage among men -- the older the mother, the more likely her son was to marry another man. Also, "only children" were more likely to be homosexual.
9. Persons born in large cities were significantly more likely to marry a same-sex partner -- suggesting that cultural factors might also affect the development of sexual orientation.
"Whatever ingredients determine a person's sexual preferences and marital choices," conclude the study's authors, "our population-based study shows that parental interactions are important."
1.) Correlation is not causation.
2.) There is nothing wrong with being gay.
3.) If you have so much to say, start your own damn blog.
"1.) Correlation is not causation."
What a startling admission from a gay advocate!
After all this time, at least one person has woken from his dream world.
Anon writes:
"[It's] good, solid information from major medical groups," said Fishback."
Wrong, David. It's not information, it's opinion.
****************
Dear Mr. or Ms. Anonymous,
What you assert is mere "opinions" are the well-considered conclusions of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, et al.
The problem with Judge Williams pronoucement is that it is directly contradicted by the higher courts: the United States Supreme Court (in Rosenberger) and the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals (in Child Evangelism Fellowship). You can read them in earlier posts. Last time, Judge Williams wrote his decision before the Board could effectively respond. No ambushes this time.
Sincerely,
Mr. Fishback (or David)
"What you assert is mere "opinions" are the well-considered conclusions of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, et al."
Davy Fishbone
They didn't consider well enough. The evidence on which they base these conclusions is not sufficient based on the scientific method. Additionally, terms are not defined precisely, the studies are generally not replicated, reading actual conclusions yields a qualified conclusion and peer review is done by friendly parties.
Anonymous at
February 02, 2007 11:00 AM said "PFOX literature is "anti-gay" only to idealogues. The goal is actually to help gays who want to change.".
Anonymous, the sole purpose of groups like PFOX and Exodus is to
promote anti-gay animus. They don't care about gays who want to change orientation, those people are merely a tool to justfiy their anti-gay political goals. If they cared about gays apart from an anti-gay agenda they wouldn't be trying to make the lives of people happy with being gay miserable by opposing gay-specific anti-bullying programs, anti-discrimination laws or anti-gay marriage laws. If they were solely interested in helping unhappy gays they'd have no need of these anti-gay activities and they'd be helping to eliminate the social hatred that causes people to be unhappy about being gay.
Anonymous at February 02, 2007 11:10 AM said "Actually, all gays are really bisexuals."
Do you have any research to back that up, anonymous? Of course not.
Many gays report that they are disgusted by the opposite sex and have no attraction for it whatsoever. In 2005 Michael Bailey did plethysmograph testing on 100 self-identified bisexuals. He reported that 75% of them responded to only gay sexual imagery and 25% responded only to heterosexual imagery. I forget the number but a small percentage did respond to both but he neglected to call them bisexual without explanation.
Anonymous said " Through counseling, they [gays] can all learn to enjoy and a maintain a heterosexual lifestyle. It's possible some same sex attraction will persist to varying degrees but the point is they'll have a choice and will be able to make a correct moral decision and still have a full and happy life.".
Anonymous, the studies by Shidlo and Schroeder and Spitzer show that the vast majority of gays cannot change orientations no matter how highly motivated they are. Spitzer said himself change is very rare and he believes the vast majority of gays would not be able to alter a firmly established sexual orientation by much if at all.
The "correct moral decision" for all gays is to pursue happiness however they see fit as long as they harm no one. Having a monogamous gay relationship is perfectly moral. What's immoral is hurting others or trying to impose your will on them by trying to prevent same sex relationships.
Jim said "There's no science saying that people can pray away the gay, sorry."
Anonymous said "There's no science saying it's innate either. That's the whole problem, gay advocates have twisted science to their own purposes.".
While there isn't absolute proof that being gay is innate studies on finger length, eyeblink rates, hearing, pheremone production and reactions, finger prints, correlations with gayness and older brothers, mothers with same chromosone deactivation being more likely to have gay sons, brain structures, and the prevelance of gayness in nature and in all societies throughout recorded time all suggest being gay is innate. While no one of them is absolute proof that fact that they all point in this direction is highly unlikely to be a coincidence. Taken as a whole these studies show that being gay is biologically caused.
Anonymous at February 02, 2007 12:23 PM said "Explain this!"
Anonymous, many gay people internalize homophobia and decide to suppress their gayness. That's exactly what's going on here. There are no penile phethysmograph (or vaginal measurement) studies showing anyone has gone from gay to straight. When Spitzer did his study across all of North America he was only able to find 247 people claiming to have changed sexual orientation out of the the 250,000 estimated clients that went through Narth alone, not to mention all the rest of the sham "exgay" industry.
Anonymous at February 02, 2007 12:48 PM said "Explain this!".
Anonymous, the trouble with those figures is they don't show who's gay and who's living in the closet by marrying heterosexually or not at all. Changing the laws on gay marriage in a country doesn't force the population to change their anti-gay attitudes and many gay people will succumb to societal repression and attempt to live the lie of heterosexuality. It may be that gays from without heterosexual role models are less likely to internalize homophobia and accept themselves for who they are, while those raised in traditional family structures all the way through are more likely to feel the pressure to suppress their sexuality and live a lie to "be like Mom and Dad were". Large percentages of gays attempt to live the heterosexual lie before they come out of the closet and accept themselves. That may well be what is being seen here.
Once again, the lack of objective testing with something like penile plethysmography would go a long ways towards proving the claims of changes in sexual orientation, but the "exgay" industry is scared to death to put their people to the test because they know in their hearts its a money making anti-gay political sham. The poor deluded people trying to change orientations and ending up harmed by the process are simply colateral damage to the religious conservatives in the culture war they started and wage.
With enough counseling and prayer, I wonder if Anon might be able to learn to live a full and happy life so s/he doesn't have to come here and badmouth LBGT people.
Anonymous says:
"Davy Fishbone"
Gee, no one thought of that one on the playground in 3d Grade.
"When Spitzer did his study across all of North America he was only able to find 247 people claiming to have changed sexual orientation out of the the 250,000 estimated clients that went through Narth alone,"
Has anyone ever wonder about this 250 hundo number that Randi throws about? Makes it sound like Spitzer and his researchers pored over 250,000 files and could only find 247, doesn't it?
Would everyone like to know where the number came from? Here it is:
Some lunatic fringe organization
(SLuFO) noted that there are 1,000 psychologists who belong to NARTH (and TTF used to claim no such animal existed!).
SLuFO estimated that each psychologist had 50 patients a year for five years.
1,000*50*5= 250,000
Wa-la!
Anyone actually believe Spitzer actually searched through all the client files of every member of NARTH?
Me neither.
Any minimally intelligent person realizes that when you can draw hundreds of thousands of LGBT people to rallies in spite of a culture of social ostracism, yet you can only find a handful of happily "ex-gay" people to strut their stuff, even among the millions who would celebrate them with riches beyond their imagination, that "ex-gay" is a myth. And then, when even those few who do present themselves end up back in the gay bars, it simply becomes too sad.
We pray for Anon.
Any minimally intelligent person realizes that when you can draw hundreds of thousands of LGBT people to rallies in spite of a culture of social ostracism, yet you can only find a handful of happily "ex-gay" people to strut their stuff, even among the millions who would celebrate them with riches beyond their imagination, that "ex-gay" is a myth. And then, when even those few who do present themselves end up back in the gay bars, it simply becomes too sad.
We pray for Anon.
Orin, your comment about the US needing to be attacked again to satisfy your ideological and psychological needs is proof that the conservative moment is over. It reminds me of the degeneration of the liberal movement when you had rational individuals celebrating groups like the Black Panthers and the Weathermen.
There will always be Anonymice, ignorant bigots who troll cyberspace and the streets of this planet. But when an intelligent man like you, who represents the best of his movement, sputters out that kind of dogma which had previously come only from those most desperate, like Hannity and Coulter, the game is over.
Texas sides with TTF again:
"Texas Requires Anti-Cancer Vaccine for Girls
By LIZ AUSTIN PETERSON
AP
AUSTIN, Texas (Feb. 2) - Bypassing the Legislature altogether, Republican Gov. Rick Perry issued an order Friday making Texas the first state to require that schoolgirls get vaccinated against the sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer."
"Any minimally intelligent person realizes that when you can draw hundreds of thousands of LGBT people to rallies in spite of a culture of social ostracism, yet you can only find a handful of happily "ex-gay" people to strut their stuff,"
So, unless someone is out protesting, they don't exist?
You're right, that's the type of logic that could only be "realized" by the minimally intelligent.
Anonymous said "Anyone actually believe Spitzer actually searched through all the client files of every member of NARTH?".
Anonymous, no one said he did. The point is that when Narth sees an estimated 250,000 clients not to mention all the clients seen by the rest of the "exgay" industry it says a lot that the most Spitzer could come up with claiming to have changed orientation is 247. The only explanation for the difficulty he had coming up with this handful of "successes" is the overwhelming failure of the "exgay" industry.
"The point is that when Narth sees an estimated 250,000 clients"
NARTH doesn't see clients. It's an association of practitioners.
"it says a lot that the most Spitzer could come up with claiming to have changed orientation is 247."
Do you have any documentation of him saying that's all he could "come up with"? What makes you think that was not just his chosen sample size?
Documentation from the Spitzer study:
"METHOD
Announcements aimed at recruiting participants requested individuals who had sustained some change in homosexual orientation for at least 5 years. To be accepted into the study, however, it was necessary for an individual to satisfy two criteria: (1) predominantly homosexual attraction for many years, and in the year before starting therapy, at least 60 on a scale of sexual attraction (where 0 = exclusively heterosexual and 100 = exclusively homosexual; (2) after therapy, a change of at least 10 points, lasting at least 5 years, toward the heterosexual end of the scale of sexual attraction. These criteria were designed to identify individuals who reported at least some minimal change in sexual attraction, not merely a change in overt homosexual behavior or self-identity as “gay” or “straight.” It should be noted that individuals who satisfied these criteria were not excluded from the study if they had had homosexual sex during or following therapy.
Over a 16-month period (January 2000 to April 2001) 274 individuals were recruited who wanted to participate in the study. Of these, 200 (143 males, 57 females) satisfied the entry criteria and constitute the study sample. The 74 excluded individuals did not meet the entry criteria for a variety of reasons: the change was for less than 5 years (n = 27), there was a change in behavior and self-identity but no change in sexual attraction (n = 18), the individual had never been predominantly homosexual (n= 12), and other, miscellaneous reasons (n = 17; e.g., three priests who did not want to function heterosexually).
Forty-three percent of the 200 participants learned about the study from ex-gay religious ministries and 23% from the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, a group of mental health professional and lay people who defend the right of gay men and lesbians to receive sexual reorientation therapy. In all but a few cases, these individuals were not chosen by these organizations; the individuals decided on their own to participate after reading repeated notices of the study that these two organizations had sent to their members. Nine percent of the participants were recruited from their former therapists who had heard about the study. The remaining 25% of the participants were largely referred by therapists who provide sexual reorientation therapy or by other individuals that were participating in the study. All of the participants, not the referral source, called the author to arrange for an interview.
The New York State Psychiatric Institute Institutional Review Board approved the study protocol and waived the requirement of written informed consent.
SAMPLE DESCRIPTION
The mean age of the 143 male participants was 42 years (SD = 8.0) and for the 57 females it was 44 years (SD = 8.5). Seventy-six percent of the men and 47% of the women were married at the time of the interview. Twenty-one percent of the males and 18% of the females were married before beginning therapy. Almost all were Caucasian (95%). Most had completed college (76%). Participants lived mainly in the United States (East 14%, West 35%, Midwest 15%, South 25%), with the remaining 16% mostly in Europe.
Most participants were Christian (Protestant 81%, Catholic 8%, Mormon 7%). Three percent were Jewish. The vast majority (93%) of the participants reported that religion was “extremely” or “very” important in their lives. Nineteen percent of the participants were mental health professionals or directors of ex-gay ministries.
Almost half of the participants (41%) reported that they had at some time prior to the therapy been “openly gay.” Over a third of the participants (males 37%, females 35%) reported that they had had serious thoughts of suicide, related to their homosexuality. The majority of participants (78%) had publicly spoken in favor of efforts to change homosexual orientation, often at their church.”"
This post has been removed by the author.
Anonymous at February 03, 2007 1:26 PM said "Do you have any documentation of him saying that's all he could "come up with"? What makes you think that was not just his chosen sample size?".
Anonymous, see this website:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_spit.htm
"According to Parul Varnell of the Chicago Free Press, "Spitzer admits that he had 'great difficulty' finding people who claimed to have changed their orientation from gay to straight. Ex-gay groups regularly claim to know of 'thousands' of people who have 'changed' or 'left homosexuality.' But after searching for nearly a year and a half, Spitzer could only find 274 possibilities."". 8
8. Paul Varnell, "Those Not Very 'Ex' Gays," Chicago Free Press. 2001-MAY-16. Online at: http://www.indegayforum.org/articles/varnell65.html
Some lunatic fringe organization
(SLuFO) noted that there are 1,000 psychologists who belong to NARTH
"American Psychiatric Association - with more than 35,000 members in the U.S., Canada, and worldwide..."
http://www.psych.org/join_apa/mb/whymem.cfm
"Founded as the Association of Medical Superintendents of American Institutions for the Insane (AMSAII), which later became the American Psychiatric Association in 1921."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psychiatric_Association
"With 150,000 members, APA is the largest association of psychologists worldwide."
http://www.apa.org/about/
"The APA was founded in July 1892"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psychological_Association
"...300,000 of American physicians are members of the American Medical Association."
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/5105.html
"1847, Nathan Smith Davis and others established the AMA"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association
"...the American Academy of Pediatrics—an organization of 60,000 pediatricians..."
http://www.aap.org/about.html
"AAP was founded in 1929"
http://www.aap.org/about.html
"NARTH currently claims to have over 1,000 members, with membership open to all."
"It [NARTH} was founded in 1992 by Charles Socarides, Benjamin Kaufman, and Joseph Nicolosi and is part of the ex-gay movement"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NARTH
(If anyone can find anything on www.NARTH.com that states NARTH's number of members, please post it. The only mention of the number of members of NARTH was found at Wikipedia. Maybe NARTH doesn't post the number of members to avoid embarrassment.)
Four of the many American medical and mental health professional organizations that have concluded homosexuality is not a disease or a mental illness, both APAs, the AMA, and the AAP, represent 545,000 professionals. NARTH, "with membership open to all" (meaning you don't have to be a doctor, therapist, or even working in any health field), disagrees and "maintains that homosexuality is a psychological disorder" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NARTH).
These facts leave no doubt which group represents the lunatic fringe.
Thousands of gay kids commit suicide every year because being gay is such a "terrible thing" at an age where social acceptance is the number one priority. Thousands more str8 kids commit suicide or drink to excess because failing in the chase for the opposite sex, they fear there is nothing else to do except "become gay" (related to the churches idea gays can become straight). If being gay is the worst thing imaginable then of course suicide can look like an attractive escape.
If gays can choose to not be gay, then tens of millions of us str8's should go choose to be gay. Jesus said not a word against gays, his ministry was primarily about helping the oppressed of the world. Religion is supposed to be a force for progressive change, but some faith(s) have been co-opted into a force for attacking a minority of our citizens and attempting to make them untouchables in the eyes of society. Unless of course, they submit to church brainwashing and the psychological scars that ultimately leads later in life to people like gay hater minister Haggard and his male prostitute escapades. He now claims he’s cured – give me a break. He I will avoid, my gay friends - I love them all, just not sexually. Haggard is of course just another example that those most opposed to gay people themselves harbor their own insecurities and fears.
Right wing churches rail against gays, instilling nothing but fear and its cousin hate. PFOX is nothing but another arm of the right wing churches. These churches greatest fear is very simple. Once one understands
their brainwashing procedures e.g. promises of heaven if you do as they say, and their terrorism threats of hell in eternity if you don't, then one of the pillars of their lies is exposed, their infallibility ends, and the whole rotten mess comes tumbling down.
Another part of PFOX's goal is they recognize that most youngsters have gay friends, and think nothing of it. PFOX therefore appeals to the prejudices and fears of the youths parents, continuing the cycle of fear and hence hatred against gay people. How would you feel if your emotions said gay, and “rules” taught and buried in our culture said you were terrible, your emotions were wrong, and change or else.
We have to understand how the words “family” and “values” have been co-opted into words expressing hatred of (being) gay by the right wing. Isn’t this the extreme of hypocrisy but it manifests itself in so much of conservative Christianity. Of course it serves to feed the right wing churches with money and power, and that is really all it is about, though we should pray that so many of their leaders will ultimately understand their own prejudices. As Bob Edgar, General Secretary of the 45 million member National Council of Churches of Christ said “ the Bible seldom mentions homosexuality, doesn’t mention abortion at all, but discusses poverty and peace more then two thousand times. But despite the Bible’s emphasis on issues of social justice, the politics of faith have been captured by a radical minority with a narrow and highly divisive agenda emphasizing personal piety above all else.” He also said that “ rather then the timeless and unifying themes of the Bible, in a stunning reversal of the historic role of religion in progressive change, faith has now be co-opted into a force for preemptive war, indifference to the poor, and reckless environmental degradation.” He reminds us that Jesus preached mainly about the poor, and that social justice and peace were at the heart of his ministry. PFOX, in my opinion, is just another player in a right wing agenda that spreads “do it my way or become an untouchable”, totally opposite to the messages of Jesus and the Bible.
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