A Great Victory for PFOX
Robert posted a link to an Alliance Defense Fund press release in our comments the other day:
Wow, that sounds like a pretty big deal. We reported on the situation down there (HERE); PFOX was pushing to get the schools to distribute their flyers, and then the school district just said it wasn't going to distribute anybody's flyers. So there.
ADF represents them, I guess, and they filed a suit, it sounds like, and looky here, they won ... a settlement.
I thought it was weird that no newspaper or news site carried the story. It seems to me I recall an occasion where one of these nutty guys, y'know, exaggerated something. Maybe I was wrong.
OK, here it is. It is a little bit interesting to see how the Associated Press wrote it up yesterday.
Isn't that great? Now they can target "even younger students."
Listen, let me tell you, they don't like me to say this about them, but I think there is something really creepy about PFOX trying to lure teenagers who think they might be gay to contact them -- never mind that now they're going after preteens.
Do you see anything wrong with that picture? No? Put Richard Cohen's face on it. Now?
(And don't think Cohen isn't still working for PFOX or vice versa -- look HERE.)
So there it is, the new policy. Same as the old policy, except in writing.
If I was a parent, and PFOX was trying to make contact with my elementary or middle-school kid, uh ... I'd better not say.
Yeah, twelve-year-olds. Very admirable.
ARLINGTON, Va. — Arlington Public Schools agreed yesterday to permit Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays (PFOX) to distribute and post its flyers on the same terms and conditions as other Virginia community groups. Attorneys with the Christian Legal Society and Alliance Defense Fund brought suit against school officials in May when they refused to distribute PFOX’s flyers even though they were distributing flyers for other community outreach groups.
“Christian community groups are not second class to other community groups. The First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of speech for all is principally about ensuring that all citizens have a right to be heard on critically important issues,” said Timothy J. Tracey, litigation counsel for CLS’s Center for Law & Religious Freedom. “The school district is finally recognizing this obligation by allowing PFOX to share its viewpoint along with other community organizations.” CLS and ADF win equal treatment for Christian group distributing flyers to students
Wow, that sounds like a pretty big deal. We reported on the situation down there (HERE); PFOX was pushing to get the schools to distribute their flyers, and then the school district just said it wasn't going to distribute anybody's flyers. So there.
ADF represents them, I guess, and they filed a suit, it sounds like, and looky here, they won ... a settlement.
I thought it was weird that no newspaper or news site carried the story. It seems to me I recall an occasion where one of these nutty guys, y'know, exaggerated something. Maybe I was wrong.
OK, here it is. It is a little bit interesting to see how the Associated Press wrote it up yesterday.
McLEAN, Va. - An organization that advocates therapy to convert gays has settled a lawsuit with Arlington County school officials over their refusal to distribute its fliers to high-school students. As a result, the group is now considering targeting its message to even younger students in middle schools. Group promoting gay 'conversion' settles with Arlington schools
Isn't that great? Now they can target "even younger students."
Listen, let me tell you, they don't like me to say this about them, but I think there is something really creepy about PFOX trying to lure teenagers who think they might be gay to contact them -- never mind that now they're going after preteens.
Do you see anything wrong with that picture? No? Put Richard Cohen's face on it. Now?
(And don't think Cohen isn't still working for PFOX or vice versa -- look HERE.)
Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays, or PFOX, sued school system administrators and board members earlier this year in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, claiming that they improperly blocked their request to send out fliers to high school students.
School officials denied any discrimination. They said all outside groups are barred from distributing fliers at high schools, basically because students don't read them. But those rules were not part of the school board's written policy, said schools spokeswoman Linda Erdos.
Last month the school board formally revised its written policy, allowing flier distribution only at middle and elementary schools.
So there it is, the new policy. Same as the old policy, except in writing.
A settlement, reached last week, specifically states that PFOX will have the same access given to other groups and can submit fliers for distribution to middle and elementary school students if it wishes, said PFOX's lawyer, Timothy Tracey.
If I was a parent, and PFOX was trying to make contact with my elementary or middle-school kid, uh ... I'd better not say.
PFOX, based in Fairfax County, has been controversial for its support of conversion or reparative therapy, which many mental health experts say is harmful. It has also opposed sex-education curriculum in Montgomery County, Md., and elsewhere that it believes advocate a homosexual agenda.
Tracey said Monday that PFOX is considering distributing its fliers at middle schools but has no plans to do so at elementary schools.
"It's better to aim at a more mature audience," Tracey said.
Yeah, twelve-year-olds. Very admirable.
posted by JimK at 7:38 AM
41 Comments:
Little hard to know what Kennedy is griping about here. PFOX is considering distributing to middle school kids but hasn't decided to. The deciding factor will no doubt be how strong the gay encouragement program in the school is for kids that age. Hopefully, not at all.
PFOX in their suit claimed that APS wouldn't distribute their flyers but would hand out everyone else's, which just wasn't true. PFOX was treated like everyone else. In their settlement, they got APS to say that explicitly. They claim that as victory. I'm not so sure.
I wouldn't advise PFOX to distribute their materials to middle school kids. As Jim says, it's creepy.
"I wouldn't advise PFOX to distribute their materials to middle school kids. As Jim says, it's creepy."
Actually, what's creepy is public school curriculums that tell school kids they will experience a new sense of joy if they start telling everyone they are gay. Also creepy are curricuums that lead kids to believe that if they are gay, they are trapped and can't change. If there are curriculums like those, then PFOX needs to reach those kids.
Gay-straight clubs are creepy too.
"Do you see anything wrong with that picture? No? Put Richard Cohen's face on it. Now?"
So PFOX STILL recommends Richard Cohen to speak for them, and NOW wants to teach elementary school children the ins and outs of anal sex for the express purpose of teaching that it is wrong?
What could possibly be wrong with that?
"and NOW wants to teach elementary school children the ins and outs of anal sex for the express purpose of teaching that it is wrong?"
Anyone ever play that game as a kid where you sit in a circle and whisper a secret in the next person's ear and it goes around until it gets back to you and is nothing like the original statement?
That's basically what every comment thread is like at TTF.
What a bunch of liars!
Joe said "Actually, what's creepy is public school curriculums that tell school kids they will experience a new sense of joy if they start telling everyone they are gay.".
Fact is its a relief for many gay kids to stop suppressing their reality. It takes a toll to constantly hide who you are and for some there is a joy in no longer being constantly on guard out of fear of bigots like you.
Joe said "Also creepy are curricuums that lead kids to believe that if they are gay, they are trapped and can't change. If there are curriculums like those, then PFOX needs to reach those kids.".
The fact is that its virtually impossible for anyone to change same sex attractions into opposite sex attractions. PFOX is a partner in creating this desire to change to avoid the bigotry it perpetuates and then offers the false hope that one can change to avoid it. PFOX doesn't care about how much they hurt gay teenagers, they only care about making it look like gays don't need or deserve equal rights.
Joe said "Gay-straight clubs are creepy too.".
Creepy to someone who doesn't believe in the equality of all. They are a wonderful way to provide gay teenagers with the support they need to deal with hatred spewed out by the likes of you.
Psst, did you guys hear the latest? joltin' joe said that every comment thread here at TTF teaches the facts...
__
Give it up JJ, you know damn well that I'm being facetious--but more importantly--specifically and precisely because of people like you.
"Gay encouragement program?" Are you insane?
Randi
Your flippant comments are creepy when you think what is at stake. You know as well as everyone else that if anything at all can be done to keep kids from falling into the gay trap, they'll likely avoid a dangerous lifestyle.
The creepy liar is the one who shades the truth and makes it sound like the curriculum will ONLY "tell school kids they will experience a new sense of joy if they start telling everyone they are gay" when in fact, the Holt resource in 10th grade says this about "coming out:"
Recognizing One's Orientation
Adolescence is marked by a growing awareness of sexual orientation. Although most people are heterosexual, a significant number of people identify themselves as homosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Most people who are gay, lesbian or bisexual report feeling "different" at a young age even though they may not have had a name for that feeling. People can identify themselves as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender at any point in their lives. Some people come out at a young age; others wait until they have been adults for many years. For many people, coming out is liberating and empowering and makes them feel whole, healthy, and complete. To identify oneself as gay or lesbian can be very difficult given that many people do not understand sexual minorities. Regardless of their sexual orientation, all students should use good judgment and wait to have intimate sexual activity until they are in a committed, permanent relationship...
Challenges and Struggles
Many people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender celebrate their self-discovery and feel relief and a new sense of joy when they can be honest with themselves and their loved ones. Others may feel isolated while coming out and may even turn to drugs, alcohol, suicide, and other dangerous behaviors. Because many youth who come out are met with hostility, they are at greater risk for engaging in harmful, damaging, and even life-threatening behaviors and for being the targets of violence and harassment.
The most dangerous lifestyle trap any LGBT person could get caught in is the ex-gay movement.
Joltin' Joe
I'm the one who was being flippant. Randi was the one who was sincerely trying to appeal to your sense of human decency.
jfyi :)
Joe said "You know as well as everyone else that if anything at all can be done to keep kids from falling into the gay trap, they'll likely avoid a dangerous lifestyle.".
There's nothing dangerous about a committed same sex relationship. What's dangerous is destroying the self-esteem and happiness of kids, some of whom are going to be gay no matter what. Its the shame and destruction of self-esteem that people like you heap on gays that leads to self-destructive behavior. If you were sincere in the slightest about gay kids you wouldn't be trying so heard to demonize gays. Fact is you couldn't care less about children, your motivation is solely to foment hatred against gays.
there you go joltin' joe with that lie that homosexuality is a "dangerous lifestyle."
and then there is that nonsense about teaching children the "ins and outs" of anal sex.
You see that is what this entire thing is all about. It is one thing for folks to believe that homosexuality is a sin but then they attach on all these lies.
If you took the time to educate yourself, you would see that all of these claims are distortions propagated by the anti-gay industry who will use guillible people to push forth their agenda.
"The most dangerous lifestyle trap any LGBT person could get caught in is the ex-gay movement.
Thanks for the link Aunt Bea,
I just posted that with a synopsis over at Soulforce. (A place where one can be both Christian and gay--at the same time! (or gay and nontheistic at all at the same time for that matter :)
Yeah joltin’ joe, who are you to want to teach children about the “ins and outs” of anal sex? That just plain sounds wrong, and here you think PFOX should be teaching it to elementary school children? Do you even have any experience with anal sex? If not, how can you consider yourself such an expert on the subject, and then also wholeheartedly endorse it being taught to elementary school children – even if it's just to teach that it’s wrong?
__
See jj, facetious.
Facetious: adjective -trivially or inappropriately humorous.
Right, the anti-gay industry.
Jim, I am surprised you didn't post this story :
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292442,00.html
The complaint is fascinating..
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/070806firefighters.pdf
"While in the Gay Pride Parade I had to here obscenities like, "Hey Firemen, let me see your hose", "I ' m feeling short of breath I think I need mouth to mouth", "Hey Honey","Fuck you Firemen". While I drove the fire engine in this parade I felt like I was put on platter by the San Diego Fire-Rescue Department."
"We did follow the chief' s order and took part in the parade to avoid any disciplinary
action . While moving down the parade route we were subjected to verbal abuse, (show me your hose, you can put out my fire, give me mouth to mouth, fuck you fireman)
sexual gestures , (showing their penis, blowing kisses, grabbing their crotch, rubbing their
nipples , tongue gestures , flipping us off)- We were subject to this type of abuse and morethroughout the parade route . You could not even look at the crowd without getting some
type of sexual gesture"
So, this was an anomaly (I think not)... or the firemen were lying (despite their sworn affadavits).
Or it is just "I see your true colors shining through"
I see you omitted the part of their claim in which they said they were also harassed by folks protesting the parade. I noticed that a lot of so-called "pro-family" sites omitted that part also.
How convenient.
At any rate, I am interested to see how this turns out. Folks are going crazy over headlines but what is the real story.
And forgive me for posting two times consecutively (I don't generally serial post) but just what does the case of firefighters in San Diego have to do with TFF and PFOX's fight over school curriculum?
Probably nothing unless you trying to push forth some ridiculous idea about a "gay conspiracy" across America against "Christian Values."
Ah, yes, let's talk about inappropriate behavior. I can recall numerous conversations in the locker room at the gym where men routinely sexually degraded their wives. Their wives! Straight men, people, straight men. They are the worst when it comes to sexual innuendo, putdowns and overall degrading behavior.
Be careful casting the first stone all you male, right-wing bloggers.
"Four San Diego firefighters were subjected to “vile sexual taunts” at the city’s Gay Pride parade after they were ordered against their will to participate, according to a complaint filed by the Thomas More Law Center.
Attorney Charles LiMandri, West Coast director for the law center, said the “inexcusable” incident violated sexual-harassment laws as the men were subjected to gross sexual gestures, indecent exposure and countless verbal taunts. One firefighter was quoted as saying, “If any crew member were to hang up pictures at the station of what we saw, we would be disciplined.”
The men said Fire Chief Tracy Jarman, who is lesbian-identified, ordered them to participate.
Bruce Hausknecht, judicial analyst for Focus on the Family Action, said, “This degrading spectacle would have been, in the past, a clear violation of the firefighters' employment rights as well as their constitutional rights, with damages awarded for subjecting them to emotional distress by forcing their compliance with the fire chief's personal agenda of promoting homosexuality."
But he added that as California has caved in to the homosexual agenda, the outcome of such cases is less clear.
“Hopefully, the law and the courts will protect the rights of these men and send a strong message to the city that such strong-arm tactics are still unacceptable in this country.”"
blacktsunami writes,
And forgive me for posting two times consecutively (I don't generally serial post) but just what does the case of firefighters in San Diego have to do with TFF and PFOX's fight over school curriculum?
To answer your question (and not get distracted by irrelevancies like that posted by Dana), I think the connection between the two can be summed up in a single sentence (with due recognition to Nat Hentoff):
Tolerance for Thee, but not for Me.
Probably nothing unless you trying to push forth some ridiculous idea about a "gay conspiracy" across America against "Christian Values."
Forget Christian Values...how about Liberal Values? Opps, I almost forgot...liberal values ONLY for those with whom you agree.
Silly me.
So I guess no sexual related remarks are ever made at the police or firemen during Mardi Gras. After all, only homosexuals are the only one's who ever think about sex.
Orin,
My comment wasn't directed against you, and I don't see why it was irrelevant. Please enlighten me.
Also, as we've discovered in Montgomery County, the people at Thomas More don't even manage basic diligence at getting their facts straight (no pun intended), so why should we put any stock in any of their public utterances?
Wow, "parade attendees made obscene gestures, uttered inappropriate remarks and displayed lewd behavior that made them uncomfortable." Those must have really been some gay people there. It must be horrible to be made uncomfortable in this way. My hearts go out to them. Thank you Fox and God for reporting this terrible incident.
I bet those boys at that parade in San Diego were just as grateful for the firefighters being there as the girls in Nevada.
http://coyote-tv.com/content/view/442/231/
"So I guess no sexual related remarks are ever made at the police or firemen during Mardi Gras."
What a idiotic comparison! Lewd Mardi Gras parades aren't held annually in all major American cities and promoted as family fun by a liberal press. And gays are also in force at Mardi Gras.
First of all:
The Union-Tribune reports: "In statements filed with the state, the men said that along the parade route, they were subjected to offensive lewd comments such as, 'You can put out my fire,' and saw men blowing kisses at them. Then, they said, they had to endure protesters who yelled at them that homosexuality was a sin. Some comments were too risque to print."
Apparently the anti-gay industry is emphasizing the "gay" aspect of the story while ignoring the other protestors. Though we still do not know the entire story, there seems to be a serious effort to make use this incident to generalize about lgbts.
And Orin
that "tolerance for thee but not for me" nonsense is a silly point of semantics that used to obscure the issue. I repeat my point:
Whatever happened concerning the firefighters in San Diego, the only reason why it is referred to in this case of TFF and the fight over school curriculum is because someone wants to appeal to people's fear and ignorance about lgbts. The point of making such comparison is only to appeal to fear and not to reason.
And the majority of lgbts don't want "tolerance." Tolerance is what someone gives you when they think they are better than you.
And I don't think anyone being heterosexual makes them better than me.
and jolly ranger,
heterosexuals do make obscene fools of themselves at Mardi Gras also.
And let's not forget Spring Break and the Girls Gone Wild videos.
You want to know what the gay lifestyle is and what is really creepy?
Read about it at:
http://massresistance.blogspot.com/
Don't let these buggers get you down, joltin joe!
Thanks for the link to the Christian right's paranoid fantasies, jjfan.
You might want to add this story about freakin' cross dressers to the compilation of sleaze over there: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3455815
"heterosexuals do make obscene fools of themselves at Mardi Gras also.
And let's not forget Spring Break and the Girls Gone Wild videos"
Yeah, but its kept in its place. You won't find Girls Gone Wild videos in the public library.
The gay advocacy movement wants stuff like these gay pride parades mainstreamed.
joltin' joe,
are you serious?
I take it you are referring to the incident in Florida where Mayor Naugle didn't want the collection of gay history added the public libary.
Naugle made a claim that the collection added "gay pornography" but to prove his point, he went out and bought some pornographic magazines and claimed that magazines "like those" are included in the collection.
In fairness to you, children under 18 cannot check out materials, but I challenge you to tell me where in this country is there a public library that shows gay films reaching the caliber of decadence shown in Girls Gone Wild tapes.
And anonymous,
your slur proves my point better than anything I can say. But since you are telling people where to go for info, might I suggest:
www.holybullies.com - which talks about my upcoming book on the anti-gay industry's deception on America
massresistancewatch.blogspot.com - which monitors the group mass resistance.
BlackTsunami writes,
And Orin
that "tolerance for thee but not for me" nonsense is a silly point of semantics that used to obscure the issue. I repeat my point:
And your point is? Oh, I see, you are getting to it...
Whatever happened concerning the firefighters in San Diego, the only reason why it is referred to in this case of TFF and the fight over school curriculum is because someone wants to appeal to people's fear and ignorance about lgbts. The point of making such comparison is only to appeal to fear and not to reason.
..."the only reason"??? Please...this gets into judging other people's motives...a problematic endeavor at best.
Also, the troublesome feature of male hypersexualixed exhibitionism (which is what these firefighters saw) has less to do with any fear or ignorance of the "lgbts" (opps, I think you left out "I" for intersex and "Q" for questioning...) and more to do with a sense of what IS and IS NOT appropriate public behavior. And yes, heterosexuals do engage in behavior that is unsettlingly similar at functions like Mardi Gras, though I am at a loss to understand how one justifies the other.
Another thing to consider in the case of these firemen: due to women now being able to be firefighters, male firefighters have had to make adjustments to this new social and political reality. Time once was that the fire station was the exclusive domain of men, but no more. So, now male firefighters, for the sake of gender equality must not display nude or scantily clad women in order to assure a work environment for women that is free of sexual harassment. What these San Diego firefighters are attempting to establish is that the rules that apply to them, also apply to their Fire Chief. How is this unfair? Now, let us suppose for a moment they objected to going to a Gay & Lesbian Job Fair (as part of the City of San Diego's efforts to be inclusive). I think it is safe to say that they would not have a legal "leg" to stand on and rightfully so.
Here is another POV on PrideFest in Denver, written by Keith W. Swain, a Denver psychotherapist in private practice.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6198394
And the final paragraph is especially insightful:
The gay community must put away the whips and gowns and get serious about the powerful impact PrideFest can have on our futures. It's time to disengage from the fringe sexual communities and instead focus on the real needs of gay men and women in Colorado. It's time to discourage the overt sexual displays of the poly-amorous, the drag queens, and the fetish communities. If and when it becomes illegal to be bisexual or to dress as a woman, I'll join that protest parade. But for now, it is essential that our PrideFest message be strong, simple, and about one community with one issue: the equality of gay men and women.
And the majority of lgbts don't want "tolerance." Tolerance is what someone gives you when they think they are better than you.
That is an odd and quite idiosyncratic redefinition of the word tolerance. Permit me to familiarize you with what the word means to most of us,
tolerance, noun 1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
(American Heritage College Dictionary, 3rd ed. Houghton Mifflin Co., 1993)
Whether anyone chooses to believe me or not, one of my proudest moments as a parent is when I hear one of my two daughters speaking their own minds, expressing a viewpoint they know to differ from my own. Truth be told, I don't care as much that their thoughts be as much "orthodox" or "heterodox" as I do that they think and have thoughts.
And I don't think anyone being heterosexual makes them better than me.
In that opinion you and I are in total and complete agreement.
Your cute little comment about Pride displays your ignorance. There are many gay prides. Down here in South Carolina, gay pride is a family event with no lewdness whatsoever. I know this because i have helped to plan it for the past five years.
Unfortunately there is a subcultural element in some prides that the media focuses on.
Then, James Dobson and the rest of the anti-gay industry uses this element demonize the entire lgbt community and then someone like you comes online to do the same.
That is the difference between how people react regarding Mardi Gras and gay prides.
No one uses Mardi Gras to attack all heterosexuals, but for some reason, lgbts who don't go to prides or prides with no lewdness has to suffer because a 5-10 second clip of a wild behavior appeals to someone's prejudices about lgbts
And you evaded my point. Just what does the San Diego lawsuit have to do with TTF and the fight over school curriculum. Do you think that if children are taught comprehensive sex education including information on lgbts then they will grow up to be half naked revelers at a gay pride parade ogling fire fighters?
Or are u trying to unfairly link the San Diego situation to a worldview of "lewd lgbts"?
If so, tht is a bad stereotype.
Orin said ""And I don't think anyone being heterosexual makes them better than me."
In that opinion you and I are in total and complete agreement.".
Orin, your disingenuosness shames you. If you were in agreement with that you'd support the right of LGBTS to equal marriage - you don't. Don't patronize us with your lies.
Orin said ""And I don't think anyone being heterosexual makes them better than me."
In that opinion you and I are in total and complete agreement.".
Orin, your disingenuosness (sic) shames you. If you were in agreement with that you'd support the right of LGBTS to equal marriage - you don't. Don't patronize us with your lies.
Randi, Randi, Randi...BT's comment was about the recognition of the respect due every member of the human family and their inherent dignity and worth. If you desire to conflate that in a way that scores you points...well, there is little I can do or say.
Ok, so do the TTF's belive that the San Diego fire fighters were correct in filing a sexual harrassment case...
Or in some twisted way do you believe they should have to put up with this ?
TTFers "are committed to promoting tolerance and fact-based education in our [MCPS] public schools".[PERIOD]
The Thomas More Law Center, which has taken up the CRC's case against MCPS has also decided to represent the four San Diego firefighters who complained. So let's ask Theresa -- does that mean CRCers "belive that the San Diego fire fighters were correct in filing a sexual harrassment case..."?
What else kept you up obsessing last night, Anon?
BlackTsunami writes,
Your cute little comment about Pride displays your ignorance.
If you had followed the link to the Denver Post op-ed column you would have discovered that Keith Swain is not just a Psychotherapist, but also a gay man,
Don't get me wrong. I am, and have been all my life, a supporter of the gay rights movement. As a gay man, how could I not be? I fully support the movement's belief that we all have the right to live free from government interference and organized social oppression. But one of the greatest tools of the movement, pride marches (and maybe even the movement itself) have been hijacked by the "sex" in sexual orientation.
I was not trying to be cute, and neither do I think Keith Swain was either.
There are many gay prides. Down here in South Carolina, gay pride is a family event with no lewdness whatsoever. I know this because i have helped to plan it for the past five years.
I fully understand that fact; here in Fort Collins, Colorado, Pridefest is an all-day function held at a city park next to the downtown library. It is as mainstream a social get together as any I have ever seen - I should know because a couple of years ago I was downtown and decided to check it out. I even saw my gay neighbors there with their dogs...
And no, it is not fair that some use events held in such large cities as San Diego, Denver, San Francisco and New York to fan the flames of prejudice against gays and lesbians. Question is this though, is it fair that others use an event originated by gays and lesbians to further an image of homosexuals that is clearly at odds with what many Americans know (including myself) NOT to be accurate? Honestly now, I don't think it is fair...but it is gays and lesbians that must speak up.
Orin,
This is a free country, and when a group is celebrating its increasing freedom of expression it's a bit hypocritical to be imposing restrictions on certain subcultures within the larger group. For political reasons in the larger society it might be expedient to do so, but within the group itself it would be seen as an arrogant and hostile act.
Events that are "family" events don't have those aspects that are used by the Dobsonites for fanning the flames of hatred; the other events are often more libertarian.
Fact is, Dobson would just use old footage anyway if every Pride event was completely desexualized; he has no shame.
Dana writes,
Orin,
This is a free country, and when a group is celebrating its increasing freedom of expression it's a bit hypocritical to be imposing restrictions on certain subcultures within the larger group.
I've heard that argument before, but it loses alot of its persuasiveness when I observe (like Keith Swain) some Pride events where the issues of gays and lesbians are hijacked by groups only interested in making mainstreaming events into freak shows.
For political reasons in the larger society it might be expedient to do so, but within the group itself it would be seen as an arrogant and hostile act.
Did you read Keith Swain's column?
Events that are "family" events don't have those aspects that are used by the Dobsonites for fanning the flames of hatred; the other events are often more libertarian.
Did you read Swain's piece?
Fact is, Dobson would just use old footage anyway if every Pride event was completely desexualized; he has no shame.
Pride events, like the one in San Diego, are good examples that a lack of shame is an equitably distributed human trait.
Please, rather than dredging up Dobson, address the argument put forward by Swain in his Denver Post column...
Orin
I think that you are clinging too much to Swain's column because you are exploiting the idea of a gay man criticizing gay prides.
What he says is something that has been said by other gays and what I happen to believe, which is why I make it a point to help make SC pride family friendly.
Unfortunately in SOME prides there is a subcultural element that is a vestige from the time when lgbts were not as open to be who they are. I tend to think that in the passage of time, this element will reduce itself.
But it does not take away from the fact that prides are needed nor does it take away from the fact that one should have enough common sense to know that the some elements of pride do not speak for the entire gay community.
And again let me reiterate my point - what does the incident in San Diego (and to be honest, we really don't know the truth of the incident) have to do with TTF and the fight over sexual education curriculum?
I say absolutely nothing. What say you?
Orin,
I agree with BlackTsunami, and also with Andrew Sullivan, the conservative gay blogger who happens to be a friend. My God, a liberal woman with a conservative friend!
When you repress a group, you find members acting out. Sexual repression leads to sexual acting out, e.g., Ted Haggard, David Vitter, Bob Allen, you name 'em. I don't encourage lewd behavior under any of these circumstances, nor do I enjoy Mardi Gras, but it serves a purpose in a repressed society. We wouldn't have such a sexualized media if we weren't such prudes in our personal lives, and the battle in MoCo is just one aspect of that.
As the LGBT community becomes more mainstream you will find less outrageous public and private behavior, and probably the demise of Pride events in toto. It's already beginning to happen, and you can find articles on that phenomenon as well.
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