Sunday, August 26, 2007

On The Innateness of Morality

I've been reading a little bit lately about mirror neurons. Let's say, simplifying, that there are parts of your brain that respond in kind when they see somebody else do something. Like when you see somebody raise their hand, there are sections of your brain that kind of raise your hand, too. Sometimes you're aware of this, like you know how it is when you see or hear somebody laugh, it makes you laugh. Or if you see somebody get hurt, it sort of hurts you, too. Well, they've found the way this might work in your brain.

I am not usually too impressed with neurocognitive explanations of mind and behavior, I'd rather understand what "the person" is doing than what "the brain" is doing. But mirror neurons do allow a way to explain some kinds of empathic effects that have otherwise been explained by inference. That is, previously it was believed that you felt the other person's pain by reasoning that if your thumb were hit with a hammer like that, it would feel like this. Now we are seeing that the empathy is more direct, it may be that we actually feel the other person's pain at the same time they feel it, thanks to these interesting brain cells that allow and support intimate social perspective-sharing.

This reading has taken me around the circuit to a most interesting lecture by a professor who studies primate social behavior, Frans B. M. de Waal, director of the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. The lecture is called Morality and the Social Instincts: Continuity with the Other Primates, and I'm only halfway through it so far, but he makes a most relevant point, which I suspect will be reinforced through the rest of the article (I'll post again later if I finish this article and find he has debunked himself).

First he talks about something he called "Veneer Theory," the view that human morality is just a layer of self-control that is slapped over the surface of a boiling, nearly irrepressible, selfish and amoral human nature. He counters this by describing the warm and harmonious interactions among members of groups of other kinds of primates and suggests that it just makes sense that we humans evolved as social creatures who innately care about what happens to those around us.

You might know that I am involved in some sort of crazy thing called "swarm theory" or somesuch. Well, one of my assumptions, never stated overtly, is that our social nature causes us to be intelligent, and not the other way around. It's not that we learn to get along because we're smart and selfish and figure we can get other people to give us what we want if we're nice and say what they want us to hear. It's that we're innately nice and likeable, people like to do things for other people, and because we talk to each other and tell one another about what we've learned, we all get smarter and smarter, individually and as a culture or species. Never mind what some people think, we actually do know a lot more about the real world than people did ten thousand years ago, a thousand years ago, a hundred years ago. Not only do we accumulate knowledge and cognitive skills as we develop within a lifetime, but over the time-course of our species the state of our common knowledge has improved unbelievably. I attribute that to our tendency to socialize, and I have computer programs that can find solutions to ridiculously hard engineering and math problems, by having a population of very simple individuals interact with one another over time.

It strikes me as very weird to think that human beings are evil to the core, with a veneer of morality, and disagreement about this may be an important part of the controversy we have found ourselves immersed in here in Montgomery County, in a number of ways. I suppose the idea goes back to the idea of original sin, or at least the story of Eve and that apple is used to explain and rationalize Veneer Theory: we are all fundamentally sinful. But I think it's deeper than that, and I don't think that America can ever get well again until we learn to accept human nature in a more positive light.

Think about some of the things that are said about teaching about sexual orientation. How could it be wrong to just tell students that some people are gay and some are straight? It would seem wrong to someone who believed that coiled up inside of each of us was a seething serpent of undifferentiated lustful craving, straining to escape and dominate our outward behavior. That monster will do anything, anything at all, it will make you do things with people of your own sex, even, if you don't stifle it, stomp it, control it -- it is essential, from that perspective, that the veneer of morality be toughened through education. I don't see any other way the CRC's views make any sense at all.

De Waal's thesis is that we are inherently moral, that nature herself has made us that way. We have empathic feelings for those around us and we want them to be happy, it makes us smile when we see a smile. He traces this belief right back to Darwin, in fact the historical lineage is interesting in its own right. He quotes Darwin:
Any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well developed, or nearly as well developed, as in man.

Interestingly, de Waal quotes Adam Smith, the father of modern economics and a source of inspiration for Darwin himself. Smith was also interested in human empathy and altruism; he said:
How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it.

De Waal closes the deal neatly:
The evolutionary origin of this inclination is no mystery. All species that rely on cooperation -- from elephants to wolves and people -- show group loyalty and helping tendencies. These tendencies evolved in the context of a close-knit social life in which they benefited relatives and companions able to repay the favor. The impulse to help was therefore never totally without survival value to the ones showing the impulse. But, as so often, the impulse became divorced from the consequences that shaped its evolution. This permitted its expression even when payoffs were unlikely, such as when strangers were beneficiaries.

In other words, it is our most basic nature to love one another, it isn't something we have to learn, it's really the way we are. We aren't balanced on the edge of a vortex of strange dark desires struggling for release and needing constant suppression -- oh, we have feelings sometimes that aren't very nice but there's usually an explanation for them, and most of the time we manage to keep a grip on ourselves till the feeling passes. We're capable of doing terrible things, but it is our nature to desire peaceful relations with our neighbors.

The sad thing, the dangerous thing, is the fact that people who believe the Veneer Theory of morality think that everybody else needs to believe it, too, because if you and I didn't believe it we might not try hard enough to suppress our inner demons and we would inevitably (according to the Theory) explode into uncontrollable furies of passionate irrationality after mere exposure to any provocative stimulus at all. And so Veneer Theorists feel people need to be punished for failing to struggle hard enough with their inner devils; just listen to these guys -- Coulter, Limbaugh, Malkin, O'Reilly, and the rest -- talk about "liberals" and you'll know what I mean. What is a liberal to them, but somebody who fails to understand the dark potency of the evil inner core of humanity? The idea that the world is a good place is despicable to our modern-day "conservatives."

The result is an inversion of morality. In the intense struggle to retain control of a Theorized beastly soul, the Veneerist attacks his neighbor. It seems to me that in our current historical time we have seen more of this than ever before in our country, and it worries me deeply. We imagine random enemies, unperceived dangers, and respond to them with our fullest force, whether they are in a far-off country or in our own neighborhoods. It worries me a lot.

30 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It worries me a lot."

Fugeddaboutit!

We're all basically good so what's to worry about?

Everyone should pick up the current issue of Bethesda magazine, containing an expose of TTF. It examines how a small group of about eight fanatics formed TTF and caused trouble out of proportion to their numbers. Even though their events are scantily attended, their listserv subscribers are less than a fourth of CRC's and their pettion numbers pale next to CRC's, the school board treats them like a major constituency group, awarding them a role on the CAC. Wonder why.

TTF has small monthly meetings but a big annual one, where officers are elected. The big annual meeting this summer drew eight attendees, four of which were the "re-elected" exec board.

Is there some reason why the MCPS board thinks TTF is so important?

Think about it.

August 26, 2007 9:55 PM  
Blogger Blue Ibis said...

Forgive the long quote but I think the subject matter will interest you. From the book Political Ponerology by Dr. Andrew Lobaczewski:

In order to understand humanity, however, we must gain a primary understanding of mankind’s instinctive substratum and appreciate its salient role in the life of individuals and societies. This role easily escapes our notice, since our human species’ instinctive responses seem so self-evident and are so much taken for granted that it arouses insufficient interest. A psychologist, schooled in the observation of human beings, does not fully appreciate the role of this eternal phenomenon of nature until he has years of professional experience.

Man’s instinctive substratum has a slightly different biological structure than that of animals. Energetically speaking, it has become less dynamic and become more plastic, thereby giving up its job as the main dictator of behavior. It has become more receptive to the controls of reasoning, without, however,losing much of the rich specific contents of the human kind.

It is precisely this phylogenetically developed basis for our experience, and its emotional dynamism, that allow individuals to develop their feelings and social bounds, enabling us to intuit other people’s psychological state and individual or social psychological reality. It is thus possible to perceive and understand human customs and moral values. From infancy, this substratum stimulates various activities aiming at the development of the mind’s higher functions. In other words, our instinct is our first tutor, whom we carry inside all our lives. Proper child-rearing is thus not limited to teaching a young person to control the overly violent reactions of his instinctual emotionalism; it also ought to teach him to appreciate the wisdom of nature contained and speaking through his instinctive endowment.

This substratum contains millions of years’ worth of biopsychological development that was the product of species’ life conditions, so it neither is nor can be a perfect creation. Our well known weaknesses of human nature and errors in the natural perception and comprehension of reality have thus been conditioned on that phylogenetic level for millennia.15

The common substratum of psychology has made it possible for peoples throughout the centuries and civilizations to create concepts regarding human, social, and moral matters which share significant similarities. Inter-epochal and interracial variations in this area are less striking than those differentiating persons whose instinctual human substratum is normal from those who are carriers of an instinctual bio-psychological
defect
, though they are members of the same race and civilization. It shall behoove us to return to this latter question repeatedly, since it has taken on a crucial importance for the problems dealt with in this book.

15 Konrad Lorenz: Evolution and Modification of Behavior (1965); On Aggression(1966); Studies in Animal and Human Behavior, Volume I (1970);Studies in Animal and Human Behavior, Volume II (1971); Behind the Mirror
*****************************
The last paragraph is the most important for it posits the existence of a small minority who's instinctive substratum is deficient or damaged. This would seem to bar them from the participation in society according to "civilized norms". They do not have a sense of empathy, or conscience. They are the psychopaths. They may (nay, must) learn to "fake it" all the while attempting to shape society to fit their world views at whatever level they are capable of. Lately, looking around, it seems they are on a roll. The US is a psychopath's paradise, whether the sphere be business or government. The list of names at the end of your post is one roster of the current group. Add the Bushes, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the majortiy of CEOs in US.

Thanks for letting me take up so much comment space. I hope you find the book and interesting read. You may also want to look at the works of Robert Hare (Without Conscience) and Martha Stout (The Sociopath Next Door)

Regards,

Blue Ibis

Find Political Ponerology here:
http://www.qfgpublishing.com/product_info.php?products_id=54&osCsid=c5e7295be79e4f046ba31485c81e7aad

August 27, 2007 1:02 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Here's how the Bethesda Magazine article begins:

Graphic with a poster reading "Teach The Facts" on the left and "Withdraw the Unlawful Sex-Ed Curriculum" on the right

minority retort
How did so few people create such a ruckus over the county's new sex-ed curriculum?

It is a battle of biblical proportions and human dimensions, fought in this unlikely suburban setting, with warriors on the left and right invoking Scripture to bolster their case for or against sex education. They have legions of supporters, but their bank accounts -- each containing well under $10,000 -- are small and their front lines thin, no more than 10 or 12 regular participant each.


Does that sound like the introduction of an "expose of TTF" to anyone?

A bit later Eugene Meyer reports

"CRC took other measures against the program, sending out mailings and making robot calls to parents urging a boycott of the lessons and picketing in front of the pilot schools.

Still, only 4 percent of eligible students declined to participate, and 5 percent more failed to bring in the required permission forms.


Meaning over 90% of eligible MCPS students took the pilot classes and turned in the required parental permission forms. TTF represents that vast majority (90+%) of MCPS parents who support the teaching of this curriculum to their children.

The curriculum is widely supported by the majority of Montgomery County parents because it teaches empathy, respect, and tolerance and because they know schools have a duty to protect students from bullying and harassment. This curriculum will help keep all our students safe.

Oh, and here's another number comparison that matters:

Number of MCPS BOE candidates who support the TTF position on the curriculum who won election in 2006: 4

Number of MCPS BOE candidates who support the CRC posision on the curriculum who won election in 2006: 0

August 27, 2007 6:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Does that sound like the introduction of an "expose of TTF" to anyone?"

When TTF regularly cites the enthusiastic support they have among parents?

Yeah, that notion has been exposed as a fraud.

"Meaning over 90% of eligible MCPS students took the pilot classes and turned in the required parental permission forms. TTF represents that vast majority (90+%) of MCPS parents who support the teaching of this curriculum to their children."

When the form the schools passed out indicate only an opt-in option? Not surprising that most parents got the message tht the school expected them to give permission.

"The curriculum is widely supported by the majority of Montgomery County parents because it teaches empathy, respect, and tolerance and because they know schools have a duty to protect students from bullying and harassment. This curriculum will help keep all our students safe.

Oh, and here's another number comparison that matters:

Number of MCPS BOE candidates who support the TTF position on the curriculum who won election in 2006: 4

Number of MCPS BOE candidates who support the CRC posision on the curriculum who won election in 2006: 0"

When the curriculum wasn't on the ballot and seemed to be going CRC's way at the last election? Parents haven't heard what's in the curriculum yet but as they become aware and the case moves up the judiciary system beyond the local media, a discussion and examination of this radical curriculum will happen. Already CNN and the NY Times have run stories unfavorable to TTF.

August 27, 2007 7:49 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

the curriculum wasn't on the ballot and seemed to be going CRC's way at the last election

How soon they forget. That's a nice little bit of revisionist history. The fact is that the CRC worked several local polling places during the 2006 primary handing out scare literature to try to defeat pro-curriculum candidates.

The anti-MCPS group Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum passed out literature at some voting places last week. They had a little handout that listed the candidates for school board and some quotes, and noted which ones were supported by groups that supported the right to abortion or women's rights (NARAL, NOW, etc.)...Like us, they're a 501(c)(3), so they can't really tell you who to vote for, but they can give you "information."

http://www.teachthefacts.org/2006/09/crc-and-wctu-perfect.html

Every candidate the CRC hoped to defeat won.

August 27, 2007 8:07 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

When TTF regularly cites the enthusiastic support they have among parents?

Anon, I don't think we have ever said there was "enthusiastic support among parents." Most people haven't given this a thought. They just assume the school district will do the right thing. That's what makes our position so hard, as I've said before, it's like being against torture -- who would think you have to speak out against torture?

The people of Montgomery County see it our way, there's no question about that. But to most people this is such an obvious thing, there's no need to go around carrying signs and joining groups to make their point.

JimK

August 27, 2007 8:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BREAKING NEWS!!!

GONZALES RESIGNS

http://www.nytimes.com/

August 27, 2007 9:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gonzo press conference scheduled for 10:30 AM today.

August 27, 2007 9:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Nutty anon:
You claim so much support for CRC but it just isn't true- not among MCPS parents- and that is what counts. Who cares how many people are on the CRC listserve- they obviously don't have kids in MCPS or don't care what CRC says. Your answer to why kids took the class is that MCPS expects them to opt in- okay- it offers the class - it does expect that. However, if a parent is opposed, they can opt out. If there were so many parents who wanted to opt out their kids- they would. The Bethesda magazine article - an expose?!- you are a laugh- just not funny.

Andrea

August 27, 2007 11:57 AM  
Anonymous Motherof2 said...

Yes, I agree Andrea, Anon. is QUITE nutty. Ha-ha.

Hey, Nutty Anon., why do you hate homosexuals so much? Do you hate all minorities? PFOX says that people are not tolerant of "ex" gays...but if a person is "ex" gay, aren't they straight?

As a parent of two, one gay and one straight, students in MCPS I am very proud of TTF and everything they are doing to ensure equal treatment of all students AND teachers. Sexual orientation is in the anti-discrimination policy of MCPS, not that bigoted and hateful word, sexual "re-orientation" (I only say that because changing one's sexuality is not possible...no matter how much B.S. you fill a person's head with).

And, I must once again agree with TTF; the majority of students, parents, teachers and other members of the community want their children taught the truth about sexual education. It's a sex-ed class, NOT a religion class.

I also am quite upset that PFOX distributed hateful materials to our students filled with lies. This only makes harassment as well as physical and mental abuse of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students worse. Do you not believe in peace?

On another note...another school year has started and I can't wait to see what the trolls (PFOX and CRC) lie about.

Motherof2

August 27, 2007 1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gonzales to Spend More Time Eavesdropping on His Family

‘Domestic Surveillance Begins at Home,’ Former A.G. Says

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales resigned today, effective immediately, telling reporters that he wanted to spend more time eavesdropping on his family.

Mr. Gonzales, a champion of domestic surveillance and warrantless wiretaps while in office, said he was “totally stoked” about turning his prying eyes on his own family.

“Domestic surveillance begins at home,” Mr. Gonzales said at a White House press conference. “That means nobody in my family is above suspicion, not even the little ones,” an apparent reference to Mr. Gonzales’ children.

Standing by Mr. Gonzales’ side, President George W. Bush praised his former Attorney General, singling out his “courage” for ramping up his domestic spying program on his own family.

“If every head of every household was as willing to eavesdrop on his own family as my man Alberto is, we wouldn’t need a Homeland Security Department,” Mr. Bush chuckled.

Mr. Gonzales was noncommittal when a reporter asked him a question about the role that waterboarding and other forms of torture might play in his interrogation of family members.

“Nothing is off the table,” he said.

The Borowitz report

Now this is funny!
Andrea

August 27, 2007 1:37 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Jim points out a fascinating issue that touches on many different fields.

For one, the fact that our primate cousins and cetaceans show moral behavior is unacceptable to religious literalists because it is another example of the wonder of evolution. We are not unique in the animal kingdom, and our sense of morality evolved as did the rest of us.

Conservatives have been making this core point for some time -- humans are innately flawed, so the primary function of society is to control our base impulses. Hence the conservative leans towards control, authority, order and the use of fear, while the liberal (libertarian)leans towards freedom, progress, law and love.

Obviously life is complex and we need to integrate all of the above into our lives, but when the core of your religious beliefs revolves around the innate sinfulness of humanity (to the point that some of the loonier of the religious extremists believe that original sin is encoded in the genome)then it colors everything you do. It always bothered me that in the orthodox Jewish community in which I was raised all good emanted from God while all bad was a function of human frailty. When I studied Christianity I was always bothered that the core seemed to revolve around an episode of torture and "dying for humanity's sins," which fits in with the entire doctrine of original sin. Orthodox Muslims are no better. And this is why orthodox monotheists generally fear a secular education because it can easily shift the worldview of the student who will reject the overwhelming negativity of the religious dogma.

August 27, 2007 2:24 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Excellent points Dana, you too Jim. I often wonder if conservatives have such a negative opinion of humanity because they see themselves as essentially evil and project that onto everyone else.

And Aunt Bea, thanks for once again exposing the distortions of the anonymii

August 27, 2007 3:27 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

"I often wonder if conservatives have such a negative opinion of humanity because they see themselves as essentially evil and project that onto everyone else."

Bingo!

August 27, 2007 4:23 PM  
Anonymous David S. Fishback said...

The Bethesda Magazine article was a pretty good description of what has been going on the last few years.

I do have a few problems with it, however.

First, while Eugene Meyer says I am 60, that is not yet true. I will not be 60 until mid-autumn. Sixty, hmmm. Well, as Satchel Paige said, "Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter."

Second, John Garza is quoted as saying that I told him I am proud of my son who went to Princeton. A calumny. One of my sons went to Yale (and then Harvard Graduate School of Education), the other went to Penn -- Princeton's arch-rival. Should I demand a correction? :)

Meyer also reports that John Garza told him that he changed his mind about having lunch with me to discuss our theological differences, saying that "I dont want to waste his time if he [Fishback] thinks he's going to save me." I found that curious, because I wrote to John saying I would be happy to continue our chat, as long as he did not think he was going to save ME. I have no illusions about changing John's mind and heart, but it is always useful to learn other more about other people's perspectives.

As interesting as the main article is, I would principally recommend reading the side-bar interview with a health education teacher at B-CC High School. I am glad we have such teachers.

August 27, 2007 10:41 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Randi writes,

Excellent points Dana, you too Jim. I often wonder if conservatives have such a negative opinion of humanity because they see themselves as essentially evil and project that onto everyone else.

LOL...you really should read the Hebrew Bible...mind you, not as any sort of God's infallible word, blah, blah, blah...but rather as an alternative view of human nature. I have a good friend that studied Egyptology at the Univ. of Chicago, and that is an agnostic/atheist, yet one of his darkest fears is the lapse of the judeo-christian ethos. So, why would a highly educated person, that thinks the Bible is mostly a bunch of hebrew inspired myths fear its demise? Good question...

Do I think people are essentially good? No.

Do I think people are essentially bad? No.

So, which is it? For now I guess I would simply say: when striving to establish and maintain civil society, don't assume people are innately good.

Still, it is oddly reassuring that the heart and soul of Rousseau lives on..."love child" of the Enlightenment.

Ever read Lord of the Flies?

Orin

P.S. And I came across this(imagine that...MTV finds this out...LOL, truth is indeed stranger than fiction):

Family ties, happy days
SURVEY | Teens, young adults prefer spending time with family

August 20, 2007

BY JOCELYN NOVECK
AND
TREVOR TOMPSON

NEW YORK -- So you're between the ages of 13 and 24. What makes you happy? A worried parent might imagine the answer is something like this: Sex, drugs, a little rock 'n' roll. Maybe some cash, or at least the car keys.

Turns out the real answer is quite different. Spending time with family was the top answer to that open-ended question, according to an extensive survey -- more than 100 questions asked of 1,280 people ages 13-24 -- conducted by the Associated Press and MTV.

When asked what one thing makes them most happy, 20 percent mentioned spending time with family.

Next was spending time with friends, followed by time with a significant other. And even better for parents: Nearly three-quarters of young people say their relationship with their parents makes them happy.

"They're my foundation," says Kristiana St. John, 17, of Queens in New York. "My mom tells me that even if I do something stupid, she's still going to love me no matter what. Just knowing that makes me feel very happy and blessed."

Other results are more disconcerting. While most young people are happy overall with the way their lives are going, there are racial differences: 72 percent of whites say they're happy with life in general, but just 56 percent of blacks and 51 percent of Hispanics say that.

A lot of young people reported feeling stress, particularly those from the middle class, and females more than males. For ages 13 to 17, school is the greatest source of stress. For those 18 to 24, it's jobs and financial matters.

You might think money would be clearly tied to a general sense of happiness. But almost no one said "money" when asked what makes them happy. Just under half of young people think they'd be happier with more money, while the same percentage, 49 percent, say they'd be just as happy.

And sex? Being sexually active leads to less happiness among 13-17-year-olds, according to the survey. If you're 18 to 24, sex might lead to more happiness in the moment, but not in general.

Close to half say religion and spirituality are very important. More than half say they believe there is a higher power that has an influence over things that make them happy.

August 28, 2007 4:47 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Orin,

I daresay balance is required. That's not what we get in either the Hebrew or Christian Bibles, and it is certainly not what we get from the fundamentalists on this blog.

August 28, 2007 9:03 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin said "you really should read the Hebrew Bible".

Orin, Orin, Orin, what makes you think I haven't? You assume much when you are ignorant of the facts. I have read the hebrew bible, never would I have dreamed that it could so completely disgrace and discredit itself. It seems to me that anyone that thinks there's any insight into morality in there couldn't have possibly read it themselves.

And by the way Orin, I'm still waiting for an answer - How does a gay couple marrying keep men and women apart? Or, as you dishonestly rephrased it, how does "doing violence" to the meaning of marriage keep men and women apart?

I'd say anyone that'd make a blatently dishonest assertion like that isn't in a position to be telling anyone about morality.

August 29, 2007 6:47 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin said "when striving to establish and maintain civil society, don't assume people are innately good.".

I've trusted many people to be innately good, I once even trusted a stranger with $3000 - I've rarely been disapointed.

And yes Orin, I did read Lord of the flies - don't take fiction (such as your bible) too seriously.

August 29, 2007 6:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Randi,
I don't usually try to disagree with you but I think the Bible can be looked at as literature of its time. I don't think the Bible is a disgrace but I also do not take it as God's word. There is morality there- perhaps all of it is not the sort we would choose to use these days but perhaps the sort that made sense to ancient tribal people. You might not want to let people who tossed children to the flames of Moloch be part of your tribe and maybe the solution in those days was to destroy them before they destroyed you. And there is something pretty good about things like Do not steal, do not kill, do not covet your neighbor's belongings, care for the poor, the widow, the orphan, let your animals rest on the sabbath- they seem pretty moral to me.

Andrea

August 29, 2007 9:13 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Randi writes,

Orin said "you really should read the Hebrew Bible".

Orin, Orin, Orin, what makes you think I haven't? You assume much when you are ignorant of the facts.

Randi, Randi, Randi...opps, I did it again...I assumed.

I have read the hebrew bible, never would I have dreamed that it could so completely disgrace and discredit itself. It seems to me that anyone that thinks there's any insight into morality in there couldn't have possibly read it themselves.

Are you sure you read the same book as I did?...oh, nevermind. Never let a good book get in the way of a prejudice.

And by the way Orin, I'm still waiting for an answer - How does a gay couple marrying keep men and women apart? Or, as you dishonestly rephrased it, how does "doing violence" to the meaning of marriage keep men and women apart?

Sigh...once again (is this some sort of "Ground Hog Day" experience?) for I don't care to remember how many times: I've answered you...you don't like the answer I gave you...and there it stands. Goodness, even my gay friend understands the reasoning I put forward even as he disagrees with those reasons.

I'd say anyone that'd make a blatently dishonest assertion like that isn't in a position to be telling anyone about morality.

So, that is what you would say...and still others would read what you have written and come away with the impression that you use the language as a club rather than a tool of reason. I'll leave it to others to decide that one...

Orin said "when striving to establish and maintain civil society, don't assume people are innately good.".

I've trusted many people to be innately good, I once even trusted a stranger with $3000 - I've rarely been disapointed.

"Many"? How many?

Here is where I shake my head as contemporary liberalism strikes me as more, much more, a faith than reason.

And yes Orin, I did read Lord of the flies - don't take fiction (such as your bible) too seriously.

So, what you are saying is that there is little that can be learned about the human condition from fiction? Would you include Shakespeare in that assessment as well?

Andrea writes,

I don't usually try to disagree with you but I think the Bible can be looked at as literature of its time. I don't think the Bible is a disgrace but I also do not take it as God's word.

Ah, a voice of reason and moderation...but why the apology for disagreeing with the irrational?

Part of the reason I became Catholic is because it allowed me enough wiggle room to not have to affirm parts of the Bible that more closely appear to be myth than Truth.

There is morality there - perhaps all of it is not the sort we would choose to use these days but perhaps the sort that made sense to ancient tribal people. You might not want to let people who tossed children to the flames of Moloch be part of your tribe and maybe the solution in those days was to destroy them before they destroyed you.

That is something fewer and fewer people have an appreciation these days...that back then many more times than now the choice was between the bad and the much worse. With limited choices one does the best they can...

And there is something pretty good about things like Do not steal, do not kill, do not covet your neighbor's belongings, care for the poor, the widow, the orphan, let your animals rest on the sabbath- they seem pretty moral to me.

This reminds me of two particular verses from the Bible; one from the Hebrew Bible and the other from the New Testament.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


To be sure, the Bible is also filled with more than enough ugliness for most readers (though a complete historical account of the Holocaust could match and surpass).
Still, the Bible has been, and still in our Age of Reason, continues to the source of some good and much inspiration. This does not keep some from expressing a blind hatred for it as any sort of authoritative text whatsoever, but that remains blessedly still a small minority.

August 30, 2007 12:06 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Orin,

I think the point is that the Bibles are filled with both the best and worst of humanity. For those of us who take them as books written by our ancestors, for whatever reason, it's not difficult to accept that. It's those who view it as literalists and "the word of God" who give us problems, because they must, deliberately, ignore all the evil said by God and done in God's name. That's pure prejudice, and does not lead to discussion.

As for those two quotes, yes, very nice. I daresay they weren't the first to voice those concerns, nor that it took a God to teach humanity those concerns. That was the point of Jim's post -- our morality, like everything else, has evolved. It may have been codified by different peoples at different times in RECENT history, but it was there before, as you say, during much more difficult times. And, I agree with you, probably the most salient aspect of the goodness expressed therein is that it was expressed in truly more difficult times for the vast majority of humanity (though there are many of my family from the last century, as well as billions even today, who would probably disagree with that statement).

August 30, 2007 8:49 AM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

After that plethora of obfuscation and ad hominem presented as legitimacy by Orin, I feel it necessary to remind us all of Randi's salient point above:

Randi Schimnosky said: "I often wonder if conservatives have such a negative opinion of humanity because they see themselves as essentially evil and project that onto everyone else."

And a personal note for Orin,

Orin says: "Sigh...once again (is this some sort of "Ground Hog Day" experience?) for I don't care to remember how many times: I've answered you...you don't like the answer I gave you...and there it stands. Goodness, even my gay friend understands the reasoning I put forward even as he disagrees with those reasons."

If your gay friend is satisfied with the
"I'm not going to explain it again even if you don't get it" non-answer above, then your gay friend is stupid.

Are all the friends you keep stupid, or just the gay ones? And yes, that's ad hominem on my part.

Try obfuscating like the pro's do, by simply explaining the very nature of cause and effect.

John Stemberger does a brilliant rendition of the process here when presented with the awkward question of how gay marriage affects his marriage by explaining how blowing his brains out would negatively affect his family.

August 30, 2007 9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Goodness, even my gay friend understands the reasoning I put forward even as he disagrees with those reasons.

How did your gay friend understand your use of the term "sexual deviancy" when discussing homosexuality? Should we assume you don't call him a "sexual deviant" to his face since you two are still friends?

"I don't usually try to disagree with you but I think the Bible can be looked at as literature of its time. I don't think the Bible is a disgrace but I also do not take it as God's word."

Ah, a voice of reason and moderation...but why the apology for disagreeing with the irrational?


What apology? You are the one who should apologize for referring to Randi as "the irrational" IMHO. Randi's views are just as valid as yours. I'd suggest you try to rebut her arguments with logic and fact rather than personal attacks.

August 30, 2007 2:49 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin said " I don't care to remember how many times: I've answered you...you don't like the answer I gave you...and there it stands.".

No you refused to answer many, many times and then when pressed to explain how allowing gays to marry keeps mean and women apart you offered on ONE occaision the silliness that "allowing gays to marry does "violence" to the meaning of marriage and this keeps men and women apart." That explains nothing. Assuming for the sake of argument we accept your absurd assertion, that allowing gays to marry does "violence" to the meaning of marriage how exactly does doing "violence" to the meaning of marriage keep men and women apart? You have not. answered the question. Given a hypothetical man and woman, explain cause and effect, step by step how this supposed "violence" to the meaning of marriage keeps them apart? I don't believe for a minute that you have a gay friend that accepts that as logical, maybe your imaginary friend does, but certainly no real gay person.

Orin said "So, what you are saying is that there is little that can be learned about the human condition from fiction? Would you include Shakespeare in that assessment as well?".

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And I think Shakespeare was a joke. That Shakespeare is put forth as some sort of high water mark in literature is one of the longest running and biggest practical jokes ever played on a gullible populace. People say shakespeare was great because they think that's what they're supposed to do to be accepted as an intellecutal, they don't really believe if from their own perspective, they're just repeating wha they think smart educated people are supposed to say.

August 30, 2007 7:00 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Andrea, yes I agree with you that the bible can (and should be) looked at as literature of its time - however, those were primitive and barbaric times.

There are a few gems scattered throughout the bible but much, if not all of what we would consider good moral advice in it is contradicted by advice and actions elsewhere. I'm wholeheartedly for "thou shalt not kill", but then the bible says gays should be put to death, over and over again god commands and carries out the murder of innocents, demanding that the Israeli invade their neighbours land and commit genocide, steal all the inhabitants goods (so much for thou shalt not steal) and keep the young virgin girls as rape toys.

Fundamental to the new testament is the idea that people will be eternally tortured for finite crimes, for thought crimes such as being of the wrong religion - there's no freedom of religion in the bible, a concept decent people value is looked upon with disdain and utter hatred in the bible. That the essence of the bible is that people will be eternally tortured for things modern moral society doesn't even consider a crime (freedom of religion) discredits any of the moral advice in the bible we might agree with.

Frankly the bible is long overdue for a major edit, its time decent Christians took the hate violence, and crap out of the bible, remove that and maybe we're left with 20 or 30 of pages of unambiguously good stuff.

August 30, 2007 7:12 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

"Frankly the bible is long overdue for a major edit...

Yeah, and how can a book with a beginning and an ending accurately represent an infinite and eternal truth that has no beginning or ending?

...Just a question.

August 30, 2007 7:39 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

I wrote,

Goodness, even my gay friend understands the reasoning I put forward even as he disagrees with those reasons.

To which Anonymous replied,

How did your gay friend understand your use of the term "sexual deviancy" when discussing homosexuality?

To which I counter,

Oh, are you referring to my comment related to Sen. Larry "But I am not gay nor have I ever been" Craig?

Ok, here is what I wrote (copied and pasted with NO edits),

You had me agreeing with you until you got to this point...to assert that all we as a society needs to do is "just get over it" is naive about the nature of sexual deviancy as a subset of human nature. And it is not just an issue with homosexuals, it is an issue with heterosexuals as well.

It really does not take too much to understand that I am talking about sexual deviancy within homosexual AND heterosexual culture...I am talking about sexual deviancy as a subset of human nature, not any single sexual orientation.

Capiche?


Should we assume you don't call him a "sexual deviant" to his face since you two are still friends?

Since he monitors this forum on a regular basis, I will have to see what he says...stay tuned.

Randi writes,

Frankly the bible is long overdue for a major edit, its time decent Christians took the hate violence, and crap out of the bible, remove that and maybe we're left with 20 or 30 of pages of unambiguously good stuff.

Ever heard of the Jefferson Bible?

http://en.wikipedia.org
/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Now, mind you, Jefferson only covered the New Testament, but who knows, maybe somewhere there is a Hebrew bible edition.

I am betting that at least 31 pages could be found...maybe more.

Earlier I wrote,

Ah, a voice of reason and moderation...but why the apology for disagreeing with the irrational?

And then Anonymous writes (whoever that happens to be),

What apology? You are the one who should apologize for referring to Randi as "the irrational" IMHO. Randi's views are just as valid as yours. I'd suggest you try to rebut her arguments with logic and fact rather than personal attacks.

How about I let Randi make the case for herself?

Orin said "So, what you are saying is that there is little that can be learned about the human condition from fiction? Would you include Shakespeare in that assessment as well?".

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And I think Shakespeare was a joke. That Shakespeare is put forth as some sort of high water mark in literature is one of the longest running and biggest practical jokes ever played on a gullible populace. People say shakespeare was great because they think that's what they're supposed to do to be accepted as an intellecutal, they don't really believe if from their own perspective, they're just repeating wha they think smart educated people are supposed to say.

Wow...sorry I asked. You heard it here first folks: two things to stay away from: the Bible and the Bard!

Now I have to get some homework done...sigh.

August 31, 2007 5:03 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin said "It really does not take too much to understand that I am talking about sexual deviancy within homosexual AND heterosexual culture...I am talking about sexual deviancy as a subset of human nature, not any single sexual orientation.".

Orin, its extremely offensive for you to say a gay man is a deviant when he's been forced into the closet and anonymous sex in toilets by the discrimination of people like you. Larry Craig is not a deviant, he's a victim of the discrimination purveyed by people who for example try to deny gays the right to marry the one person they love most. Mighty hypocritical of you to complain about the use of loaded words when a church reneges on its promise to hold a funeral for a gay man and to then revere to a gay victim of yours as a deviant.

August 31, 2007 1:44 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

And Orin, you still haven't answered the question as to how allowing gays to marry keeps men and women apart. How about you just acknowledge the obvious - that you can't conceive of how that could actually be the case.

August 31, 2007 6:16 PM  

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