Out West, Bad Good Guys
I was going to ignore this story, but it's just so fascinating. It's like ... do you remember in the Addams Family, when the boy wanted to join the Boy Scouts? The parents were heartbroken. What did we do wrong?
See what you think about the latest teenage gang out in Reno, Nevada.
Come on, you don't find this interesting? Using brass knuckles and baseball bats to enforce good, moral behavior? Does this remind you of anything?
I think a key to it was in the little phrase, "don't engage in violence unless they can outnumber their targets." They stand for righteousness and goodness, as long as they've got backup.
And hey, this is getting under my skin. Listen to what that guy said, that it's ironic that "otherwise good kids are committing crimes." Oh yeah, they're great kids except that they're criminals. Could it go the other way? Can "otherwise bad kids" do nice things for people? This guy would be totally surprised if that happened. The more I think about it the more this bugs me. They're good kids except they gang up on people and beat them up with baseball bats and brass knuckles, sometimes killing them. What kind of moral universe does that policeman live in, where being a good person or a bad person is only spuriously correlated with your behavior?
Some more:
This is a long article. You should follow that link and read this thing, it is a really kind of interesting phenomenon. But there's something about it.
Look, I grew up in the Southwest, as you know, and this is somewhat familiar to me, it's got a ring to it. I'm looking for one little word here, one little tip-off, I think I know what's going on ... not seeing it ... not seeing it ... not seeing it ... ah -- here it is:
Okay, now I've got it. It's just like it was when I was in high school, in Phoenix, except the Mormon bullies didn't have a name back then, and I don't remember them actually killing people.
These kids have the "correct" values, they're against sinful ways of drinking, smoking, casual sex. But they're criminals, violent, ruthless, gutless criminals. We're surprised -- or are we? Doesn't this describe a certain element of the ruling class in our country today? Is there a contradiction here, or isn't there?
See what you think about the latest teenage gang out in Reno, Nevada.
You wouldn't expect a splinter faction of teens that rejects alcohol, tobacco, drugs or promiscuous sex to be an active criminal street gang, but in Washoe County that's exactly what's happening, authorities say.
In March - following a six-month investigation - Straight Edge was officially classified a gang by the Regional Gang Unit. Nearly every week, gang officers investigate Straight Edge crimes or harassment that doesn't seem to subside following arrests.
Authorities describe Straight Edge attacks as random, opportunistic, violent beatings that can be spurred by minor comments from nonmembers. Members - who sometimes use bats, shovels, knives, brass knuckles and Mace - don't engage in violence unless they can outnumber their targets, police said.
Straight Edgers tend to attack other teens who are publicly engaging in activities Straight Edgers don't agree with, such as smoking or drinking.
"It's ironic and disappointing that otherwise good kids are committing crimes to promote their own personal philosophy," said Lt. Doug Cardwell of the gang unit. "We've had more crime attributed to Straight Edge than any criminal street gang this year." Reno police classify Straight Edge as a gang
Come on, you don't find this interesting? Using brass knuckles and baseball bats to enforce good, moral behavior? Does this remind you of anything?
I think a key to it was in the little phrase, "don't engage in violence unless they can outnumber their targets." They stand for righteousness and goodness, as long as they've got backup.
And hey, this is getting under my skin. Listen to what that guy said, that it's ironic that "otherwise good kids are committing crimes." Oh yeah, they're great kids except that they're criminals. Could it go the other way? Can "otherwise bad kids" do nice things for people? This guy would be totally surprised if that happened. The more I think about it the more this bugs me. They're good kids except they gang up on people and beat them up with baseball bats and brass knuckles, sometimes killing them. What kind of moral universe does that policeman live in, where being a good person or a bad person is only spuriously correlated with your behavior?
Some more:
Police acknowledge that not every student claiming to lead the Straight Edge lifestyle engages in criminal activity. About 20 boys and young men so far have been identified as violent Straight Edge members, authorities said.
Efforts to interview Straight Edge students or parents through phone calls were unsuccessful. Those who were contacted didn’t want to talk for this article because they feared retaliation.
Edgers not involved in criminal activity — whose exact numbers here are unknown — are not considered gangsters, police said. Some teens who believe in the philosophy also have branched off into their own groups and go by different names. Punk rock music initially is what bonds Edgers.
Parents, gang unit officers said, need to be the first point of defense in stopping this violence.
“We hope parents take the time to ask their kids the right questions and make these kids realize how easy life can change with one swing of a bat — they could be facing murder charges,” Sgt. Rick Bjelke said. “Good kids will be spending their life in prison for what? Someone was smoking or drinking?”
Several Straight Edgers in Washoe County are being prosecuted in juvenile court for separate incidents this year, including random beatings and intimidation of non-Straight Edge students and property destruction.
Gang members who are prosecuted for gang-related crimes face sentencing enhancements, which automatically double their punishments. Most are also court-ordered not to associate with other members.
This is a long article. You should follow that link and read this thing, it is a really kind of interesting phenomenon. But there's something about it.
Look, I grew up in the Southwest, as you know, and this is somewhat familiar to me, it's got a ring to it. I'm looking for one little word here, one little tip-off, I think I know what's going on ... not seeing it ... not seeing it ... not seeing it ... ah -- here it is:
Utah law enforcement classified Straight Edge as a gang several years ago, following members’ involvement in a 15-year-old’s death and beatings similar to those that have been seen in Washoe County.
Detective Lex Bell of the Salt Lake Area Gang Project in Utah thinks Straight Edge is popular there because of the strong Latter-day Saints’ influence, which mirrors the group’s core beliefs.
“When these kids are raised with these beliefs and they get to high school, they are exposed to more people and cultures and some get dogged for being LDS,” Bell said. “They can grab onto something like Straight Edge that they think is cool and still represents their beliefs.”
Okay, now I've got it. It's just like it was when I was in high school, in Phoenix, except the Mormon bullies didn't have a name back then, and I don't remember them actually killing people.
These kids have the "correct" values, they're against sinful ways of drinking, smoking, casual sex. But they're criminals, violent, ruthless, gutless criminals. We're surprised -- or are we? Doesn't this describe a certain element of the ruling class in our country today? Is there a contradiction here, or isn't there?
posted by JimK at 8:52 AM
23 Comments:
"Using brass knuckles and baseball bats to enforce good, moral behavior? Does this remind you of anything?"
Yes, it does. It reminds of the people who were planning to stone the adulterous woman before Jesus stopped them.
"Doesn't this describe a certain element of the ruling class in our country today?"
Not at all.
An Open Letter to Readers
by Ann Coulter
October 15, 2007
Dear Readers,
I've been participating in a charade for nearly eleven years, now. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it. You have all been a part of a sick joke that I began considering shortly after first getting on the air. At first, it was quite interesting to see how people would react when I would use twisted logic and poorly masked bigotry.
But eleven years is a long time to be living a fake life, and I can no longer tolerate this falsity. Even someone as fake as I tires out eventually.
Here's the truth, I don't care what people believe. Jews don't need to be "made perfect" as I so arrogantly proclaimed to Editor & Publisher not a half week ago. I don't even care if people are Muslim. Granted, I don't know much about the religion or the people, but they are people. This is something that we cannot forget, they are in an abhorrent situation. These people are in need of education. Perhaps if we did not participate in causing them misery, they would not hate us so.
In fact, does it really matter whether we are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or even Pagan? We are one nation. One. We should not let petty differences separate us, we are all American, and should act in that manner.
And with that, my precious viewers, I bid you adieu. My career as a media figurehead is over.
Signed,
Ann Coulter
P.S. - Oh, and Bill O'Reilly is also just acting.
There are a couple of disturbing linguistic slips here, including the police use of the term "good kids." A kid who doesn't to smoke or drink but who also runs with a violent gang is a good kid? The word good is being used as a euphemism for a kid who comes from a family or community that we don't like to prosecute.
Another problem is with the phrase great values. These kids have great values because they don't drink? This is the core value the police say they grew up with? They gang up on people and beat them but they don't drink so they have great values? These kids' core values are that other people's lives don't matter. That is not a generally accepted great value in most communities.
Jim, you asked, Can "otherwise bad kids" do nice things for people? Well, the Guardian Angels is one example. The original members of the Guardian Angels weren't necessarily bad, but they weren't from the "right" neighborhoods or schools. They weren't the kind of kids that get labeled as "good kids," regardless of their behavior. When they first began patrolling the subway in New York City the Mayor and the City police tried to get rid of them, even as their popularity with New Yorkers grew.
There is Salt Lake City chapter of the Guardian Angels. Maybe it's time for some outreach to Reno.
"These kids have the 'correct' values, they're against sinful ways of drinking, smoking, casual sex. But they're criminals, violent, ruthless, gutless criminals."
Sounds like the Taliban to me. Does it sound like a "certain element of the ruling class in our country today"? Well, that depends on how widely you define "the ruling class." There seem to be people who have great influence whose views could have "inspired" these kids. I await James Dobson's vigorous condemnation of these gangs.
"Well, that depends on how widely you define "the ruling class." There seem to be people who have great influence whose views could have "inspired" these kids. I await James Dobson's vigorous condemnation of these gangs."
This comment is beneath you, David. No one in our ruling class from Nancy Pelosi to John Roberts has ever advocated the enforcement of their moral views by violent street gangs.
Interesting comment, Anonymous. What is the difference between this and a police force?
Merle
Jim writes,
Come on, you don't find this interesting?
Actually...no, I don't find this interesting at all. Though that you find it of interest is revealing...
Using brass knuckles and baseball bats to enforce good, moral behavior? Does this remind you of anything?
The Taliban before US Forces liberated Afghanistan...
And then Jim finds the connection...those dreaded Mormons.
These kids have the "correct" values, they're against sinful ways of drinking, smoking, casual sex. But they're criminals, violent, ruthless, gutless criminals. We're surprised -- or are we? Doesn't this describe a certain element of the ruling class in our country today?
No, it does not...fevered left wing fantasias notwithstanding.
Is there a contradiction here, or isn't there?
Huh?
And then Anonymous posts a letter purporting to be a confessional by Narcissist and Nihilist Ann Coulter...frankly I would not be surprised if she did write that letter. But since I think she is content to be a conservative phony (since it brings in so much money) I think it may not ever happen).
Then Tish writes,
There are a couple of disturbing linguistic slips here, including the police use of the term "good kids." A kid who doesn't to smoke or drink but who also runs with a violent gang is a good kid? The word good is being used as a euphemism for a kid who comes from a family or community that we don't like to prosecute.
That is one possibility...the other may be so simple as a fundamental confusion over what constitutes "good". I have noticed this with my two daughters, as well as others, wherein they say that so and so is "good". When asked what they mean by that, it is generally explained that this so and so does not lie, cheat or steal. While that is necessary, it is not sufficient to qualify as having good character. Someone who is good makes this world a better place for others qualifies as good. Apparently even the police experience confusion over this word and what it really means.
Then David writes,
Sounds like the Taliban to me. Does it sound like a "certain element of the ruling class in our country today"? Well, that depends on how widely you define "the ruling class." There seem to be people who have great influence whose views could have "inspired" these kids. I await James Dobson's vigorous condemnation of these gangs.
The above is one of the most morally stunted comments I have read or heard in a long time...tsk, tsk.
Merle writes,
Interesting comment, Anonymous. What is the difference between this and a police force?
Really pretty simple...unless you are a college professor: the rule of law. When the police do not follow this, if they are caught (which also applies to criminals), they are judged by the same set of rules that apply to all the rest of us. Does this always and everywhere happen? Hardly...but this is what morally differentiates the police from Straight Edgers.
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw the other day at the community college I attend (taking computer classes) - "Terrorist: What the Big Army calls the Small Army". I was so stunned by the moral reductionism that I had to read and re-read this bumper sticker to make sure I had not misread it. Which only goes to show that there are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual believes them.
Orin, I was hoping you would have some personal observations and insights to add to this news story about Mormon gangs.
And now I'm hoping you can explain what is contradictory or hard to understand about the "big army/little army" bumper sticker. Or, here's the same question put another way: can any other country besides ours have "patriots?"
JimK
the rule of law. When the police do not follow this, if they are caught (which also applies to criminals), they are judged by the same set of rules that apply to all the rest of us.
We all noticed the way the same set of rules were applied to Scotter Libby as they were to other criminals of his ilk. Laws most certainly do NOT apply to everyone the same way in this country anymore. Bush made sure of that by signing over 750 signing statements basically exempting himself from every law he's approved. Laws are only for the rest of us.
"But they're criminals, violent, ruthless, gutless criminals. We're surprised -- or are we? Doesn't this describe a certain element of the ruling class in our country today?"
Wow! I guess this line here has exposed the true nature of the TTFer. Living in a land where people enjoy more personal freedom than any nation in history, they have the mental instability to believe soemthing like this.
Unbelievable! How this group got representation on the CAC is a scandal waiting to be exposed. They certainly don't represent any group of citizens in Montgomery County or anywhere else in America.
Anonymous:
Enough of your self-righteous sweeping generalizations. You are sooooo tiresome! Say something of significance once in a while or... like Ann Coulter...is it just beyond your limited means to show a shred of humanity in your "musings"?
Could you be so kind as to reveal to us what tiresome self-righteous sweeping generalization you are referring to?
You guys seem to just make some generalized insult to make it seem like you actually said something.
Orin writes:
Then David writes,
Sounds like the Taliban to me. Does it sound like a "certain element of the ruling class in our country today"? Well, that depends on how widely you define "the ruling class." There seem to be people who have great influence whose views could have "inspired" these kids. I await James Dobson's vigorous condemnation of these gangs.
The above is one of the most morally stunted comments I have read or heard in a long time...tsk, tsk.
***************
Orrin,
Care to explain why you think my comment is "morally stunted"?
David
Andrea- not anon
N. Anon is wrong- how unusual. we represent a lot of people in MC. We know N. anon thinks MCPS parents are morons who can't be trusted to make decisions about their kids but we think parents in MCPS are among the most educated and well informed in the country. We also think they are capable of making decisions about their own children and that is why they sign to allow their kids to take the Human Sexuality portion of the health education class. The day when Johnny Garza and Bianca/Precious/Retta are the majority in MC- I move.
"criminals, violent, ruthless, gutless criminals"
Few in our county would agree with description of our "ruling class", whoever that is referring to.
"we think parents in MCPS are among the most educated and well informed in the country. We also think they are capable of making decisions about their own children"
Then why don't you support having two versions of sex ed:
1. Ab-only and gay-neutral, as CRC prefers
or
2. Safe promiscuity and pro-gay, like the new TTF-certified program
and let them decide.
It's because you know most would prefer responsible and truthful education.
Anonymous:
Your suggestion to have separate (but equal?) sex ed classes is analogous to offering separate classes for those students whose parents believe in flat-earth theories or the innate inferiority of certain races. You are so out of touch! MCPS simply doesn't have the wherewithal to offer single classes for the 20 or 22 (that many?) students whose parents do not want them integrated into the 21st century. As you seem to be so dissatisfied with MCPS, why not home-school your children (you do have some in the public schools, don't you?) or enrol them in one of the many private schools that are there for your choosing? Be sure to find one that is encased in a plastic-bubble so as to protect their students from life's realities and enhance your particular sex-phobic views.
"students whose parents do not want them integrated into the 21st century"
Your idea of the 20th century is laughable. What you're talking about is the 1960's. The philosophy of that era came crashing down when it resulted in an epidemic of AIDS, herpes and teenage pregnancy.
Get out of your liberal bubble and face reality!
David previously wrote,
Sounds like the Taliban to me. Does it sound like a "certain element of the ruling class in our country today"? Well, that depends on how widely you define "the ruling class." There seem to be people who have great influence whose views could have "inspired" these kids. I await James Dobson's vigorous condemnation of these gangs.
To which I replied,
The above is one of the most morally stunted comments I have read or heard in a long time...tsk, tsk.
To which David replies, begging a question,
Orrin,
Care to explain why you think my comment is "morally stunted"?
David
To start a paragraph with the Taliban and ending it with James Dobson did not escape my notice (nor I suspect any other discerning reader).
I forgot that contemporary liberalism, unlike the classical variety, no longer believes in the Natural Rights idea of anything being true in any "self evident" sense of the expression. Sorry...my oversight.
If the problem of Straight Edgers were to become as commonplace as abortion on demand (i.e. abortion for any reason, any time or any age), then yes, I would strongly suspect that he would address this social ill as well.
But truthfully now, that was not the point of you linking the Taliban and Dobson...was it? Your conceit will need to be more clever ly disguised next time, not to mention more original than a boiler plate fund raising letter from People for the American Way, et al.
Orrin,
You object to use of the terms Taliban and James Dobson in the same paragraph.
I chose my words carefully. First I noted, correctly I believe, that the Straight Edge sounds like the Taliban in their purported adherence to "traditional values," and their violent behavior against those who do not accept all of their values. Do you agree with the analogy, or do you think I am missing something?
I did not accuse Dobson of committing or espousing physical violence. What I said was that his public pronouncements could influence people in ways that could lead them to the "Straight Edge" path. And because Dobson is so vocal and visible in his endorsement of the "traditional values" of the Straight Edge kids, he has a particular responsibility to speak out when such violence occurs.
The news article is from 2005. I did a Google search and could find nothing from Dr. Dobson addressing it. If I missed something, please let me know.
Here's a short list of SOME of the gutless criminal acts and statements by members of our current ruling classes - national, state, and local. Feel free to add to it:
-"Among the laws Bush said he can ignore are military rules and regulations, affirmative-action provisions, requirements that Congress be told about immigration services problems, ''whistle-blower" protections for nuclear regulatory officials, and safeguards against political interference in federally funded research."
-"a federal prosecutor said yesterday that the hanging of nooses at a high school in Jena, La., constituted a hate crime but that charges were not brought because the students allegedly responsible were juveniles...
The white students who hung the nooses were suspended and forced to attend disciplinary courses. Jena High School's principal, who is white, sought to expel them, but was overruled by the school superintendent, who is also white and called the nooses a schoolboy prank.
Thousands of people marched in Jena last month to protest what they called the overzealous prosecution of the six black students, who originally were charged with attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder."
-"Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, testified to a federal grand jury that he had been "authorized" by Cheney and other White House "superiors" in the summer of 2003 to disclose classified information to journalists "
-"Administration officials, acting at the request of Halliburton, redacted a Pentagon report to conceal more than $100 million in fuel overcharges from international auditors overseeing the Development Fund for Iraq."
-"At a 10th anniversary party for "Hardball" last week, Chris Matthews said that Bush White House officials -- especially some in Dick Cheney's office -- had tried to "silence" him"
-"Two career investigators in the office of State Department Inspector General Howard J. Krongard have charged that they were threatened with firing if they cooperated with a congressional probe of Krongard and his office."
-"At the Department of Homeland Security, contract employees help write job descriptions for new headquarters workers. Private contractors also sign letters that officially offer employment. And they meet new government hires on their first day on the job.
"Plainly put, we need to know who is in charge at DHS -- its managers and workers, or the contractors," Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.) said in a written statement. "This heavy reliance on contractors raises the risk that DHS is not creating the institutional knowledge needed to be able to judge whether contractors are performing as they should, and at a fair price." "
-"The Interior Department’s program to collect billions of dollars annually from oil and gas companies that drill on federal lands is troubled by mismanagement, ethical lapses and fears of retaliation against whistle-blowers, the department’s chief independent investigator has concluded.
The report, a result of a yearlong investigation, grew out of complaints by four auditors at the agency, who said that senior administration officials had blocked them from recovering money from oil companies that underpaid the government."
-The Abramoff Wing of the GOP and/or Bush Administration:
"Italia Federici, co-founder of the Council of Republicans for Environmental Advocacy, pleaded guilty to tax evasion and obstruction of a Senate investigation into Abramoff's relationship with officials at the Department of Interior.
Former Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, sentenced in January to 2.5 years in prison, acknowledged taking bribes from Abramoff. Ney was in the traveling party on an Abramoff-sponsored golfing trip to Scotland at the heart of the case against former White House official David Safavian.
Former Deputy Interior Secretary Steven Griles, the highest-ranking Bush administration official convicted in the scandal, pleaded guilty to obstructing justice. He admitted lying to a Senate committee about his relationship with Abramoff, who repeatedly sought Griles' intervention at Interior on behalf of Indian tribal clients...
Tony Rudy, lobbyist and one-time aide to former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, pleaded guilty in March 2006 to conspiring with Abramoff. He is cooperating with investigators.
Former White House official David Safavian, the Bush administration's former top procurement official, was sentenced to 18 months in prison in October 2006 after he was found guilty of covering up his dealings with Abramoff. Safavian is appealing his conviction.
Michael Scanlon, a former Abramoff business partner and DeLay aide, pleaded guilty in November 2005 to conspiring to bribe public officials in connection with his lobbying work on behalf of Indian tribes and casino issues. He is cooperating with investigators.
William Heaton, former chief of staff for Ney, pleaded guilty to a federal conspiracy charge involving a golf trip to Scotland, expensive meals, and tickets to sporting events between 2002 and 2004 as payoffs for helping Abramoff's clients.
Neil Volz, a former chief of staff to Ney who left government to work for Abramoff, pleaded guilty in May 2006 to conspiring to corrupt Ney and others with trips and other aid.
Mark Zachares, former aide to Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, pleaded guilty to conspiracy. He acknowledged accepting tens of thousands of dollars worth of gifts and a golf trip to Scotland from Abramoff's team in exchange for official acts on the lobbyist's behalf.
Roger Stillwell, a former Interior Department official, was sentenced to two years on probation in January after pleading guilty to a misdemeanor charge for not reporting hundreds of dollars worth of sports and concert tickets he received from Abramoff.
Former Abramoff business partner Adam Kidan, sentenced in Florida in March 2006 to nearly six years in prison for conspiracy and fraud in the 2000 purchase of the Fort Lauderdale-based SunCruz Casinos gambling fleet."
-Duke Cunningham accepted bribes from Mitchell Wade. Mitchell Wade's campaign contributions totaled $87,700. That's $73,200 to Republicans, $1,000 to Democrats, and $13,500 special interests.
Details at http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Mitchell_Wade.php
David writes,
Orrin,
That is Orin, with one "r", not two, please.
You object to use of the terms Taliban and James Dobson in the same paragraph.
Yes, I think that is what I had in mind when I characterized your comment as "morally stunted".
I chose my words carefully. First I noted, correctly I believe, that the Straight Edge sounds like the Taliban in their purported adherence to "traditional values," and their violent behavior against those who do not accept all of their values.
Do a little online homework and you will quickly discover that the Taliban and Straight Edge are only similar in the most superficial sense and only to those with a blinding hatred of Dobson.
Do you agree with the analogy, or do you think I am missing something?
Lemme see here a minute...the Taliban on one side, a group that espouses a violent nihilistic form of radical Islamist theology, and Dobson, one individual using the various forms of the media to attempt to persuade others to his point of view (which is what we all get to do in our society).
Not only would a majority found your "analogy" lacking, they would also find it offensive and think it the product of a person suffering from moral blindness.
I did not accuse Dobson of committing or espousing physical violence. What I said was that his public pronouncements could influence people in ways that could lead them to the "Straight Edge" path. And because Dobson is so vocal and visible in his endorsement of the "traditional values" of the Straight Edge kids, he has a particular responsibility to speak out when such violence occurs.
Do you even know what Dobson teaches with regards to say, alcohol use? Here is a sample:
If you drink modestly — an occasional glass of wine with dinner or a beer every other week — think carefully about alcohol's role in your family. Many parents decide to abstain while rearing their children in order to send an unambiguous message to steer clear of it. Others feel that modeling modest, non-intoxicated use of alcohol equips children and teenagers to make sensible decisions later in life. Each family must weigh the options carefully and set its own standards.
Wow, that sounds pretty open minded if you ask me. When I was LDS I abstained from all alcohol use; now that I am Catholic I enjoy alcohol in a responsible manner from time to time (it is especially enjoyable after I finish mowing the lawn in the summer). Dobson is NOT saying don't consume alcohol; rather he is saying that parents ought to carefully consider the example they set for their children. Sounds like wise advice to me (especially given the fact that underage drinking here in Colorado is a significant social problem).
The news article is from 2005. I did a Google search and could find nothing from Dr. Dobson addressing it. If I missed something, please let me know.
Sorry, but Dobson need not address every social ill, no matter how petty or grave.
Then an anonymous poster left this scribbling,
Anonymous said...
Here's a short list of SOME of the gutless criminal acts and statements by members of our current ruling classes - national, state, and local. Feel free to add to it:
And then there is a list of real and imagined offenses, ending with this:
Duke Cunningham accepted bribes from Mitchell Wade. Mitchell Wade's campaign contributions totaled $87,700. That's $73,200 to Republicans, $1,000 to Democrats, and $13,500 special interests.
Do you know where Cunningham is now? He has been incarcerated in the federal prison system...here from Wikipedia is a handy summary:
Sentencing
On March 3, 2006, U.S. District Judge Larry A. Burns sentenced Cunningham to 100 months (eight years and four months) in prison.[49] Federal prosecutors had pushed for the maximum sentence of ten years, but Cunningham's defense lawyers said that at 64 years old and with prostate cancer, Cunningham would likely die in prison if he received the full sentence.[50][51] Judge Burns cited his military service in Vietnam as the reason the full ten years was not imposed. Prosecutors announced that they were satisfied with the sentence, which is the longest jail term ever given to a former Congressman.[52]
On the day of sentencing, Cunningham was 90 pounds (41 kg) lighter than when allegations first surfaced 9 months earlier. After receiving his sentence, Cunningham made a request to see his 91-year-old mother one last time before going to prison. "I made a very wrong turn. I rationalized decisions I knew were wrong. I did that, sir," Cunningham said. The request was denied, and Burns remanded him immediately upon rendering the sentence.
He did not even get to see his 91 year old mother...hummm, I don't know about you, but it sounds like he got punished. Does everyone get punished with anything closely approximating perfection? That is a good question, one worthy of careful consideration...rather than attempting to score cheap debater points.
Time to go to bed...good nite.
"Do a little online homework and you will quickly discover that the Taliban and Straight Edge are only similar in the most superficial sense and only to those with a blinding hatred of Dobson...one individual using the various forms of the media to attempt to persuade others to his point of view "
I think Straight Edgers are similar to a lot of people on the radical religious right, like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, and Osama Bin Laden. They are all bullies who seek to enforce their ideas of morality through brutality.
The only people who think Dobson is to be revered even though he has chosen to NOT speak out in the media against the Straight Edge group's tactics are those with blinding loyalty to all things Dobson.
Orin,
I did not analogize the Taliban with Dobson. Rather, I clearly analogized the Taliban with the Straight Edge.
Because prominent people, like Dobson, who espouse what they call "traditional values," often create an atmosphere that foster intolerance, they have a particular responsibility to condemn those who use violence against people who do not conform to the "traditional values."
Your general point that Dobson could not be expected to respond to every such incident has some merit. I don't know how big a deal the Straight Edge was out West. However, I am not aware that Dobson -- well known for his views on homosexuality -- spoke out against the murder of Matthew Shepherd, an incident that attracted national attention. Please correct me if I am wrong.
David
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