CRW Meets the Target
The Citizens for a Responsible Whatever say they turned in 16,625 more signatures yesterday, bringing the total to 32,087. They need 25,000 valid ones to force a referendum on the new gender identity nondiscrimination law that was passed unanimously by the Montgomery County Council; that would be slightly more than 77 percent valid signatures, which is a possibility. Their first batch was reviewed by the Board of Elections, who told the CRW that 13,476 of the 15,600 signatures submitted for the midpoint had been found valid so far, and they are still checking them -- that's about 86 percent valid signatures, far above the norm. And as they check more, that percentage can only rise; expect 90 percent valid signatures, by the Board's count.
I've been saying I wouldn't be totally surprised if there were 25,000 stupid people in our county. I hoped there weren't, but I'm not surprised. When you're told that a new law lets pedophiles into the ladies room, you're going to be against it.
I expect there will be some review of the validity of the signatures. If there are indeed 25,000 valid ones, then in November the people will vote on whether to re-legalize discrimination against transgender people. More interesting times coming up.
I've been saying I wouldn't be totally surprised if there were 25,000 stupid people in our county. I hoped there weren't, but I'm not surprised. When you're told that a new law lets pedophiles into the ladies room, you're going to be against it.
I expect there will be some review of the validity of the signatures. If there are indeed 25,000 valid ones, then in November the people will vote on whether to re-legalize discrimination against transgender people. More interesting times coming up.
posted by JimK at 6:45 AM
37 Comments:
gear up guys and don't get discouraged. this thing is far from over.
Keep up the good fight.
I just wanted to personally thank all of those who helped battle the preposterous mis-reprenation of the non-discrimination law. I have only had the honor of meeting a few of you personally, but maybe I'll have the pleasure of meeting more of you in the coming months. I am humbled by the vociferous efforts of activists on behalf of people like myself and my friends. You did not have to or need to go out of your way to speak up for an already much-maligned and misunderstood minority, but some unquenchable streak of righteousness called you forth to. I am in awe of your humanity. Thank you.
If you are sitting at your computer reading this (and most likely you are, or printed it out from one) you might be interested to know that deep in the core of your machine is a multiple-instruction per cycle execution unit. This may not mean much to you, but several decades ago the dogma of computing professors and engineers was that you can only execute one single instruction per clock cycle. One engineer showed this was entirely wrong and laid out the groundwork for significantly increasing processor speed and efficiency by showing how to perform several instructions at the same time. Unfortunately she was fired from her job at IBM when she broke news of her medical condition.
Despite this setback, and numerous others, she went on to co-author the book that became the bible for VLSI (Very Large Scale Integrated-circuit) design. This was the basic tool thousands of engineers across the world have used to design and build the ubiquitous electronica we depend on for our daily lives.
Here story is perhaps the one that those opposed to protections for people with Gender Identity fear most, as she went on to become Professor Emerita at a major public university. You can learn more of her story here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/BioSketch.html
You can learn more about T issues in general from her main site here:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html
From some of Jim’s comments I suspect this is one of the first times some of you have dealt directly with trans folks. I hope you have found it educational. For those interested in a further peak into “T world,” you might find the video at http://youtube.com/watch?v=8iDpx2PEM3E interesting. It was done by a friend of mine and is a biography / introspective / rockin’ look at her life and transition. Warning: if your not from the MTV generation, your eyeballs might start spinning – watch out for symptoms of epileptic seizures!
Peace,
Cynthia
the word transgender is not found in the new law so no discrimination
Just because someone differs in their opinion from that of your group does not mean they are stupid.
While I can appreciate your view respectfully I am not sure you are able to do the same.
Parents and educators alike do not all agree that you are correct in your assumptions or your desire to defeat the councils actions.
I am quite aware of how liberal Montgomery County Maryland leans. Even the Council will unapologetically state they are liberals.
They may not represent the rest of their citizens well and may find themselves un-elected in the future.
AnonFreak: go on hiatus already!!!
Anonymous said...
"Just because someone differs in their opinion from that of your group does not mean they are stupid.
While I can appreciate your view respectfully I am not sure you are able to do the same.
Parents and educators alike do not all agree that you are correct in your assumptions or your desire to defeat the councils actions.
I am quite aware of how liberal Montgomery County Maryland leans. Even the Council will unapologetically state they are liberals.
They may not represent the rest of their citizens well and may find themselves un-elected in the future."
I say: I highly doubt that!!!
CRW(eirdos), etc. in the Gazette (there is also a story on www.nbc4.com)
Opponents to anti-bias law turn in signatures
Knapp decries spread of 'misinformation'
by Janel Davis and Margie Hyslop | Staff Writers
Opponents of allowing the county's an anti-discrimination law to include transgendered people have turned more than 28,000 signatures into the Board of Elections to bring the legislation up to a vote by county residents.
The group, Citizens for Responsible Government, formed after the County Council passed the legislation last year, needed 5 percent, or 25,001 valid signatures for the referendum in the November balloting.
Meanwhile, Council President Michael J. Knapp (D-Dist. 2) of Germantown said Tuesday he is troubled by the misinformation he said is being spread by opponents of the law.
‘‘The thing that is sad to me is the level of vitriol,” Knapp said. ‘‘They are providing misinformation and scaring people,” he said, and the county will have to work to counter the misinformation.
Assuming all of CRG's signatures are valid, just what will the ballot question say?
‘‘We want to make sure it's simple for all county residents to understand the implications of this bill so they will see it as a clear 'yes' or 'no.' Yes, we want the bill as it is, or no, we do not,” said Michelle Turner, spokeswoman for the organization.
The law broadens the county's existing laws to prohibit discrimination against transgendered people in housing, employment, cable television service and taxi service.
The County Council and County Executive Isiah Leggett (D) approved the law after removing a contentious amendment that would have also regulated areas like bathrooms and locker rooms. Without the amendment, operators of those facilities would retain authority on who uses them.
But opponents, such as CRG - which initially argued against the bathroom provision - still argue that the law is too vague. And because of that argument and the group's petition process, the law has not gone into effect yet, said Michael Faden, a council attorney.
‘‘This is a referendum on a law,” Faden said. ‘‘If they get their signatures, then it won't take effect until the referendum, and depending on the answer, if voters want it, the law takes effect 30 days after the referendum; and if voters don't want it, [the law] doesn't take effect.”
Proponents for the county's law - including Dana Beyer, a transgendered female and staff member for Councilwoman Duchy Trachtenberg - have called CRG's process a series of scare tactics.
CRG has run into opponents who have challenged the group's mission and petition process. In the past few weeks minor skirmishes have broken out between volunteers collecting signatures for the group and opponents at grocery stores, schools and polling places last week. An attorney for the group is deciding whether to file a civil rights lawsuit because of alleged harassment.
‘‘We have found that this issue straddles every demographic and political line,” said Ruth Jacobs, an infectious disease physician in Rockville who leads the group. ‘‘The ease with which the signatures have been obtained and the indignation of the voters demonstrate how isolated the council is from its constituents.”
svelte_brunette said...
"Her story is perhaps the one that those opposed to protections for people with Gender Identity fear most, as she went on to become Professor Emerita at a major public university. You can learn more of her story here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/BioSketch.html
You can learn more about T issues in general from her main site here:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html
From some of Jim’s comments I suspect this is one of the first times some of you have dealt directly with trans folks. I hope you have found it educational. For those interested in a further peak into “T world,” you might find the video at http://youtube.com/watch?v=8iDpx2PEM3E interesting. It was done by a friend of mine and is a biography / introspective / rockin’ look at her life and transition. Warning: if your not from the MTV generation, your eyeballs might start spinning – watch out for symptoms of epileptic seizures!"
--
Thanks for the links Cynthia. And that video too, groovemeister to the bone. I’m joyfully seizurrrriiiiiiiiaaaangggnn!
I would also like to thank the allies of us transgenders for their help. We are a small minority and we couldn't do much to oppose this evil without help from people like you. You are a shining light of goodness that stands up against what is wrong and I deeply appreciate your efforts. You're not obligated to help us and yet you put in the time and effort to do so, thank you so much once again.
Andrea- not anon
Anon-go look at the election results for the last election for County Council and the overwhelmingly progressive vote we had last Tuesday - what kind of nonsense are you talking??? True, the Council is not doing the job of representing the regressive right wing bigots of MC- however, I doubt those numbers will increase enough to change the make-up of the Council for maybe the next hundred years.
And by the way, I don't respect or appreciate the views of bigots- I respect your right to hold those views.
According to a previous poster: "Council President Michael J. Knapp (D-Dist. 2) of Germantown said Tuesday he is troubled by the misinformation he said is being spread by opponents of the law.
'The thing that is sad to me is the level of vitriol,' Knapp said. 'They are providing misinformation and scaring people,' he said..."
Maryland Election Law Sec. 16-401:
(a) In general.- A person may not willfully and knowingly:
...(3) misrepresent any fact for the purpose of inducing another person to sign or not to sign any petition;
...(6) obtain, or attempt to obtain, any signature to a petition by fraud, duress, or force
Will TTF or Equality Maryland send a letter to the Board of Elections stating the allegations of misrepresentation and fraud on the CRG petition as detailed by Mr. Knapp, Jim, and others?
Andrew
Maryanne Arnow said...
Apologies - This was incorrectly posted in another section and belongs here....
*** MD Anti-Discrimination Law Now Facing Referendum - The real Struggle Begins ***
Today at 01:11:11 PM �
Quote Modify Remove
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello again everyone -
It looks like the real battle to keep this legislation in place is about to begin.
The opposition claims to have met their petition numbers to force this bill to referendum, and possible repeal.
I was out in the cold, alongside fellow supporters, day after day, facing the hatred, the lies, the misperceptions and misinformation being fostered by our opponents, and not slept day and night, off and on, for a couple of weeks now.
We have been trying to stem the tide of untruths, accusations, misperceptions, misinformation, illegal or unethical petitioning methods, and frightening negative associations being made to the general public about transgendered people,, and our apparent direct or indirect connection to things like "sexual predators" and "pedohiles", etc.
We are facing statements about and how this law invariably - "opens the door to anyone that cares to throw on a dress and makeup",, and "invade the women's facilities to "peep at, prey on, or rape and generally destroy the privacy and safety of such facilities".
Myself, a retired and locally well-respected MTF TG surgeon, as well as a few other fearlessly open T friends and LGB friends,,
and people from the Vigilance blog and Teachthefacts, have been characterized as bullies,
- and myself, Mr. Kennedy(of Vigilance) and Dr. Beyer, specifically accused of being -"Transgender Thugs", trying to interfere with the fair democratic processes of the fellow citizens of this state and county.
We were backed by Equality Maryland in the initial efforts of our own campaign to oppose the opponents, and by using the slogan "decline to sign".
The opposition groups may even now be preparing lawsuits against us personally as i write this.
The opposition has now reported, that they did in fact, reach their number of required signatures this past week, and will be ready to move forward to getting their referendum of this bill as quickly as possible.
They have placed fear and doubt in the minds of literally thousands of people, and have done so by directly associating sexual predators with every common negative characterization associated with T, as well as LGB people.
This has been put right in the face of all of my fellow citizens and neighbors,, and they have done this so effectively, as to be able to tap deeply into the fears of the general public, and achieve, if not possibly far exceed their goals.
This is not over. Now the real fight begins. Those like myself that have been the most visible and most directly involved in opposing this campaign must now challenge the validity of these 30,000 + signatures that have been turned in.
It is likely i will vounteer to be sitting in an election board office or school for the next several days, sifting through these petition signatures, and trying to verfiy that enough are invalid for various legal reasons, so that we can effectively challenge this referendum attempt.
Below are current links to the Vigilance blog today, as well as a couple of press articles that have been published as this all got really cranked up in the last couple of weeks.
If this law is pulled and goes back to the council and the public for vote in November, then that will give us a few short months.
- A few short months this year to crank up every possible educational effort to the general public,, to stem the tide of common misperception and stereotypes, as well as the all of the fear that has now been VERY effectively associated in the minds of thousands of local parents and familes, in letting such a "bad law" stand that will clearly endanger (specifically)their wives, sisters, daughters, their privacy, their safety, and their sanctity in the use of any public and private facilities.
The opposition has stated that if it is simply reworded, and language excluding definition of "gender identity" or "gender Expression" in the bill is re-written, they will be fine with that and leave it alone.
I seriously doubt that, given past experience that others have talked with me about on this issue here in this region.
Many of the petitioners i spoke to in person this week honestly claim to have no issues with T people at all, per se, but clearly do not understand the issue in it's entirety.
They have only been given the typical mass of fear, misinformation, untrue characterizations, untruth, and hatred from the opponents, that got them to go out there and spread these lies to the public in the first place.
The opponents are backed by big conservative and religious power from all over the country, and that means facing pockets that are much deeper than any of us have at the moment.
All the more reason to fight on, and bring this to a head, and hopefully significant national attention. Better education of the general populace is key, and of CRITICAL importance.
Every person that is given the chance to look beyond myth, misinformation, bigotry, stereotype, and hatred, is one more person that may support our push for the simple and truly ethical acknowledgement of equal human rights for all people.
ALL people - not just the ones that only fall within "normal" "acceptable" societal standards of gender and sexuality, as is now being vociferously dictated against by the opponents of our right to exist as fellow citizens,, with as much right, and access, to all facets of "normal" mainstream public society that they themselves enjoy, without question or debate.
Please help if you can, and in ANY way that you can.
Thanks,
Sincerely,
Maryanne A. Arnow
links:
http://www.teachthefacts.org/2008/02/crw-meets-target.html
http://www.nbc4.com/politics/15352093/detail.html
http://www.teachthefacts.org/2008/02/petitions-are-due-today.html
http://www.gazette.net/stories/020808/polinew204427_32367.shtml
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,27597.msg201992.html#new
Andrew--
Writing letters is one of my favorite pastimes. I will be the first to say that, YES, I will indeed bring this up with the CC.
Thanks for your research!
MTM
my assessment of the situation - http://holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com/2008/02/success-of-lie-they-say-that-lie-can.html
"We want to make sure it's simple for all county residents to understand the implications of this bill so they will see it as a clear 'yes' or 'no.' Yes, we want the bill as it is, or no, we do not," said Michelle Turner, spokeswoman for the organization.
--
Well at least that's consistent.
Yes or No
+ or -
Plus or Minus
Positive or Negative
Male or Female
As a straight male and father to a young child I have taken a keen interest to the debate going on here. First off, let me say, for all your hard work, research and for not allowing yourselves to be bullied, I applaud you. Secondly, it is unfortunate there are still people who feel the need to cause obvious harm to others just because of their sterotypes. A lot of this is being done using scare tactics and the bible as their base for reasoning. I believe a true christian man or woman looks past such arguments and instead reaches out to those who are in a time of need and understanding just as Jesus did. Sitting with the ill, poor, gamblers and "people of the night" are just a few groups that Jesus reached out to. This is how I was reared and I am thankful my parents taught me the true meaning of Christ.
Finally, I can not say I really understand why someone would want to go through a transistion such as you are. In truth I can not imagine ever feeling the need to live as a transgendered person. And it is something that I find a bit strange. However we were all put on this planet together to live in harmony. I can not imagine God would make a mistake as I am sure you are being mislabled.
Keep up the good fight and always keep the higher ground. The Lord will humble those who should be. In a way, I can not believe I am saying this but you will have my support. May everyone-on both sides- be blessed.
Take Care,
R.F.
R.F., I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't understand why somebody would want to change their sex, either, that isn't the point. We shouldn't have to understand somebody to respect them or treat them fairly. It doesn't seem like such a big thing, but some people seem to start from the position that people who are not like them have something wrong with them. That's what I really can't understand.
JimK
You know, R.F., most people don't understand diabetes or ovarian cancer or osteoporosis either, but they don't whip themselves into a frenzy to discriminate against people with those medical conditions. They don't stand around shopping malls and ask that people with nephrolithiasis be banned from using the bathroom, or that overweight people be banned from locker rooms because they don't want to have to think about them or, God forbid, their children might see them and wonder if they'll become overweight some day.
They use scare tactics out of Goebbels' playbook to obfuscate and them keep repeating the lie over and over again to generate hysteria.
I could spend a few thousand dollars to robo-call the County with a warning like: "There is a new strain of a deadly bacterium called MRSA, or methiciliin-resistant staphylococcus aureus (sounds scary, doesn't it?). It is spreading like wildfire through Baptist churches in the county, transmitted by direct contact with the pews. No God-fearing Christian should attend church for the next month while we sanitize all the churches. You must stay away from all children, who are silent carriers of this disease in their unsuspecting head lice." Do you think there would be 100% attendance the following week? I don't think so.
In reflecting on R.F.'s encouraging and supportive remarks, and those of Dana in response, and in reviewing all of the furor generated by the CRG over the past few weeks in collecting signatures for their petition, I was reminded of one of the most provocative theories propounded by Hitler in his "Mein Kampf"...the so-called "Big Lie" theory:
"...in the big lie, there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. "Ahhhh..the power of lies!
I have previously compared the CRG supporters with Peck's "People of the Lie". We have an important battle before us...to fight the battle against ignorance, to dispel the lies, to reveal the truth about the Council's legislation and the effort to create equality for all of our citizens.
We know there are people out there who agree with us in overwhelming numbers and we will motivate them to express their view at the polls on election day.
RT
R.F., you seem like a much more reasonable fellow than the ordinary TTF supporter. It would hard for these guys to make up someone whose help they need so badly. I'm sure they were heartened by your comments.
I had a few responses to your post:
"As a straight male and father to a young child I have taken a keen interest to the debate going on here."
We're a match. All the same applies to me.
"First off, let me say, for all your hard work, research and for not allowing yourselves to be bullied, I applaud you."
You're right about the hard work and research but I don't know what you're referring to when you say they have resisted bullying. TTF supports the wealthiest county in the world and it's mutual, baby. Everyone in city hall is on their side.
And, have you ever seen the kind of tactics they used against the CRG volunteers. Look at the pictures they've posted from last weekend. At one place they surrounded the table of an elderly man so that no one could see him or feel comfortable approaching him. They refused to leave until the gentleman gave up and went home. The volunteer, being a Christian, tried to extend charitable compassion to him and they repaid him by posting his picture up and trying to make him look like a fool. Did you ever see Bonnie and Clyde?
Then, there's the stream of personal insults and attacks made to anyone who disagrees with them. A senior advisor to a county councilman, who is on the executive committee of TTF, set a new low for this when making derogatory remarks about the appearance of one of the leaders of CRG.
It's just hard to see anything comparable coming from CRG's side. What kind of bullying from CRG have you seen directed toward TTF?
"Secondly, it is unfortunate there are still people who feel the need to cause obvious harm to others just because of their sterotypes."
To oppose extending special protection to a certain group is not the equivalent of causing "obvious harm"? What were you referring to here?
"A lot of this is being done using scare tactics and the bible as their base for reasoning."
CRG has suggested that forcing business owners to let males who believe they are females use female restrooms would make it difficult for business owners to guarantee their safety because it is difficult to assess someone's true beliefs. This may be called a scare tactic, I suppose. But wouldn't that make arguing against any negative consequence of a government action amount to a scare tactic? This is how the Chinese government attacks their opponents. They say critics of the government are trying to cause upset the people by "lying" about the government and then arrest them. This is why we have free speech written into our Constitution.
Apparently, the county council here is trying the same reasoning against their opponents. To have a senior advisor to a city councilman act toward opponents of the bill this way is frightening.
Beyond that, R.F., I haven't heard the CRG refer to the Bible in their "reason"ing on the bathroom issue. You might want to note that Christians aren't the only group represented in CRG. One of TTF's pictures was of a Muslim CRG volunteer. I doubt she used the Bible in her reasoning process.
"I believe a true christian man or woman looks past such arguments and instead reaches out to those who are in a time of need and understanding just as Jesus did."
There's no need to settle on the nature of transgenderism to reach out to those in need. If you're a Christian, you know that it doesn't matter one iota whether a person is willfully sinful or has an innate sinful nature. The duty of a Christian is to show charity to all because there is no man who is morally superior to any other man by any material margin.
And, you're right, Jesus took care to associate with those who were considered the lowest form of scum in his society. When you think of it, though, he never suggested using the government to force everyone to act like him. That's the issue being debated here. Not whether to be kind to transgenders but whether the government should force people to be kind to each other.
"Sitting with the ill, poor, gamblers and "people of the night" are just a few groups that Jesus reached out to."
Absolutely. CRG has not spoken against doing that. Indeed, many CRG volunteers are members of congregations doing just that.
"This is how I was reared and I am thankful my parents taught me the true meaning of Christ."
Well, I'm glad you were raised in the right kind of church. What denomination is it that taught you these things?
"Finally, I can not say I really understand why someone would want to go through a transistion such as you are. In truth I can not imagine ever feeling the need to live as a transgendered person. And it is something that I find a bit strange. However we were all put on this planet together to live in harmony."
And we can do that better if we're not doing it because we're afraid of being sued or arrested by a repressive government.
You have to admit, TTF's actions last week weren't exactly conducive to harmony.
"I can not imagine God would make a mistake as I am sure you are being mislabled."
I don't think anyone is saying God made a mistake.
"Keep up the good fight and always keep the higher ground."
This is good advice and I hope TTF supporters will take it to heart from here on out. Let's just discuss and debate. Stop the personal attacks and attempts at intimidations and rely on the efficacy of reason.
"The Lord will humble those who should be."
In the words of the old folk hymn:
The proud and the mighty they all have stumbled.
Shine a light on me.
"May everyone-on both sides- be blessed.
Take Care,
R.F."
You too, R.F..
Try to contribute more often. TTF needs your wisdom.
Tom B.
Andrea- not anon
So when will any of the Shower people address how I was yelled at and harassed by the short baseball cap guy? How I was called a facist and told I should be aborted? How Tish was screamed at? How some woman came to me in the parking lot and told me she was yelled at and called a God Damn democrat by Short baseball cap guy? How some parents and their kids were screamed at and had papers thrown at them when they disagreed with the kindly Shower people? I know the Recall/CRC/CRG/Shower people see no problem in insulting Dana or Maryanne by calling them men.
Your lies and hypocrisy, "Tom", are standard fare for your group.
Shower/CRG/Recall never allows any discussion on their websites. well, I don' t wonder- I know that they believe in the repression of free speech and discussion.
Tsk, tsk, Tom. I'm sure Theresa can handle a little bit of gender-related ribbing. We've been doing this for so long I really don't think she had a problem with it, or she would have told me so. And considering the people like Retta who called Maryanne a "clown" to her face, I say you're the ones with a good deal of apologizing left to do.
It's your people who deliberately attack women standing right in front of you with insults. Do you have the right to question our sex and gender? Sure. I really couldn't care less what you think. You are also free to say whatever you want, but in a civil society you are expected to treat people as they want to be treated. Sort of like the Golden Rule, you know?
I don't believe you are entitled to lie to be people, to be clearly uncivil and hostile, in order to put my rights up for a vote.
Bottom line, for all the sideshow stuff flying around, you are lying and continuing to lie about what is in the law. You're right -- this is not a debate about sex and gender, this is about a civil rights bill and what it says or doesn't say. And when you associate trans women like me with pedophiles and predators, then you are crossing the line into provocation and hate speech. You are still free to do so, but we will not stand by when you speak that way to others.
At this point it's up to the attorneys.
Tom B. said "It's just hard to see anything comparable coming from CRG's side. What kind of bullying from CRG have you seen directed toward TTF?.
The CRW equated transgenders with pedophiles and called TTF women men so its more than directly comparable. The CRW threatened to sue TTF supporters merely for telling people the truth by saying, "I hope you have deep pockets". CRW are the bullies here. Its them trying to make it legal to discriminate against people like us. We're not trying to get the law to allow us to discriminate against them.
Tom B. said "To oppose extending special protection to a certain group is not the equivalent of causing "obvious harm"? What were you referring to here?".
These are not special protections, the law is to provide trangenders with the same right others have not to be discriminated against. It is the CRW religionists who demand the special protection of an exemption to the law just for them.
Tom B. said "CRG has suggested that forcing business owners to let males who believe they are females use female restrooms would make it difficult for business owners to guarantee their safety because it is difficult to assess someone's true beliefs.".
The law would not force business owners to do anything, it does not reference restrooms. Your acknowledgement that transwomen wouldn't be safe in the men's room shows your bigotry and lack of concern for humanity.
Tom B. said "CRG has suggested that forcing business owners to let males who believe they are females use female restrooms would make it difficult for business owners to guarantee their safety because it is difficult to assess someone's true beliefs.".
The bible and the Koran is where these religionists get their hatred of gays and transpeople from. Secular people are decidedly on the side of fairness when it comes to us minorities. They may not quote it, but as Huckabee says it drives everything they do.
Tom B. said "The duty of a Christian is to show charity to all because there is no man who is morally superior to any other man by any material margin.".
So, you're not morally superior to Hitler? Just askin'.
Tom B. said "Jesus took care to associate with those who were considered the lowest form of scum in his society. When you think of it, though, he never suggested using the government to force everyone to act like him. That's the issue being debated here. Not whether to be kind to transgenders but whether the government should force people to be kind to each other.".
You never complained about the government forcing people to be kind to blacks by eliminating "whites only" establisments, segregation, and the ban on interracial marriage. You never complained about the government forcing people to be nice to Jews or other religious minorities, you're not crying to allow business owners the right to deny Jews the use of their bathrooms. You've got no problem with the government forcing that but not when it comes to LGBTs because you're a hypocrite.
RF said "we were all put on this planet together to live in harmony."
Tom B. said "And we can do that better if we're not doing it because we're afraid of being sued or arrested by a repressive government.".
History has shown this hasn't been the case. If they government hadn't stepped in there'd still be slavery, segregation, and a ban on blacks marrying in the U.S. The CRW has shown clearly that they won't live in harmony with transpeople unless they are forced to - they're petitioning to be allowed to discriminate against us proves it.
Tom B. said "You have to admit, TTF's actions last week weren't exactly conducive to harmony.".
TTF is the one opposing discrimination. CRW is the one asking for the right to discriminate, it is CRW that isn't being conducive to harmony. Discrimination is never harmonious and your Orwellian twisting of reality is immoral.
Tom B. said "This is good advice and I hope TTF supporters will take it to heart from here on out. Let's just discuss and debate. Stop the personal attacks and attempts at intimidations and rely on the efficacy of reason.".
How hypocritical coming from someone who insists on calling some TTF women men.
Tom B said Look at the pictures they've posted from last weekend. At one place they surrounded the table of an elderly man so that no one could see him or feel comfortable approaching him. They refused to leave until the gentleman gave up and went home. The volunteer, being a Christian, tried to extend charitable compassion to him and they repaid him by posting his picture up and trying to make him look like a fool.
One of the five people "surrounding" the table is the "elderly gentleman" himself. For the record, I do not think Jeff, who told us his age, is "elderly" like you do. Jeff never asked us to leave so we could not have "refused" to do so. In fact, he asked many questions and kept the conversations going. The only person who ever said Jeff "look[s] like a fool" is you, Tom. I don't think he looks foolish at all. He looks happy and relaxed and he gave all of us ladies big goodbye hugs. We offered to help him carry his stuff to his car but being a gentleman, he declined our offers.
CRG has suggested that forcing business owners to let males who believe they are females use female restrooms would make it difficult for business owners
CRG is mistaken, the law does not force business owners to do any such thing. Business owners are still free to make their own decision about who uses which restroom in their establishment. Some business owners may choose to segregate their restrooms by gender and some may not. This is why George Leventhal could not guarantee which genders might be present in which restrooms in the letter CRG has taken completely out of context to use in their misinformation campaign.
To have a senior advisor to a city councilman act toward opponents of the bill this way is frightening.
Which advisor to which City's Councilman?
I haven't heard the CRG refer to the Bible in their "reason"ing on the bathroom issue. You might want to note that Christians aren't the only group represented in CRG. One of TTF's pictures was of a Muslim CRG volunteer.
That Muslim CRG volunteer told me she was a doctor but refused to state her speciality when I asked her if she specialized in human sexuality. She told me that GID is an "immoral" condition to people of her faith, which she also refused to identify. When I asked her if there were other medical conditions she found to be "immoral" she began chanting. When I asked her why she was not willing to discuss the issue with me in a reasonable manner, she told me people of her faith who meet someone immoral (I guess I'm immoral even without suffering from GID), are to say "Salaam" and act as if that person no longer exists. She continued to chant and never spoke to me again or answered any questions. I stayed at Congressional Shopping Center for about an hour during which time she obtained one single petition signature. Eventually the store manager asked her and a newly arrived second petition gatherer to leave the premises.
This is good advice and I hope TTF supporters will take it to heart from here on out. Let's just discuss and debate. Stop the personal attacks and attempts at intimidations and rely on the efficacy of reason.
You should give this advice to your Muslim doctor, who would neither discuss nor debate nor rely on the efficacy of reason. She shut the door to all such reasonable actions and said she did so because of her faith. You should also give this advice to BaseballHat-Smoker because he could not debate, discuss, or rely on reason either.
Tom B. said…
"I haven't heard the CRG refer to the Bible in their "reason"ing on the bathroom issue. You might want to note that Christians aren't the only group represented in CRG. One of TTF's pictures was of a Muslim CRG volunteer."
--
So true, the CRG is exploiting non-Christians like Muslims, whom, according to Christians of CRG ilk, are going to burn for all eternity in hell. But that’s ok with the likes of CRG Christians, as long as they help with the supremacist “Christian” agenda while they’re alive.
Also, in their pastors letter, CRG uses this Biblical justification to codify their hatred, I mean "religious beliefs," into law:
CRG: “Deuteronomy (22:5) clearly delineates a distinction between men and women and further describes cross-dressing as an abomination. If the act of cross-dressing is condemned so strongly in the Bible, certainly considering a man AS a woman could not be accepted by the faith community."
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.
Oh yes, quite the abomination. Is there a woman in your family who wears pants Tom? If so, you might want to be a good Christian and let them know that according to your CRG friends, God detests them.
Of course the CRG doesn’t really believe in the Bible, or they would believe this should be made law too:
Deuteronomy 22:22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
And something I’m sure we’ve all had to deal with from time to time, bird’s nest protocol:
Deuteronomy 22:6-7 If you come across a bird’s nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve almost taken the mother bird and her young…
"Tsk, tsk, Tom. I'm sure Theresa can handle a little bit of gender-related ribbing. We've been doing this for so long I really don't think she had a problem with it, or she would have told me so."
There are actually extremely offensive Dana, I have been advised by an attorney that they are actionable, and I would appreciate it if you would take them down.
Immediately.
Theresa
Theresa, in the interest of keeping the peace, Dana asked me to delete two of her comments that made personal comments about you. We would ask, in return, that you direct your members to refrain from making the same kinds of comments about someone's appearance, telling women they look like men etc., and insist that they refer to someone by the correct pronoun. In the same way you don't like it, my transgender friends don't like it when it's done to them by your people. We have an issue here to wrangle over, I presume you feel there is an actual point to what your group is doing -- let's not let it deteriorate into name-calling and petty insults on either side, ok?
JimK
Theresa: You said: "There (sic) are actually extremely offensive Dana, I have been advised by an attorney that they are actionable, and I would appreciate it if you would take them down."
Has your "attorney" (is he perhaps Mr. Garza?) also told you that it doesn't help your case by continuing to lie about the contents of the law? It seems to me if would be very difficult to defend you in any court of law because you discredit yourself every time you open your mouth. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's minister of propaganda, is alleged to have stated that if a lie is repeated enough times it would become widely accepted as truth. That is definitely an idea the CRG petitioners have bought into.
Jim.
I will try to avoid saying anything hurtful. That is not my intent.
Thank you for removing the comments.
Theresa
Thank you, Theresa, and also please ask your people to follow your lead on that. I understand that some members of your group feel that transgender women are really men in dresses, but they aren't, legally or in any other way. It's not that hard to be civil in referring to them or addressing them.
JimK
Theresa said "There are actually extremely offensive Dana, I have been advised by an attorney that they are actionable, and I would appreciate it if you would take them down.".
Theresa, now you know how it feels when you question transwomen's gender. You don't see any of us threatening to take you to court.
Dana
Deleting the comments was the right thing to do.
I applaud your taking the intiative to do so.
Peace
Tom B.
Rio Thereas said,"There are actually extremely offensive Dana, I have been advised by an attorney that they are actionable, and I would appreciate it if you would take them down.
Immediately.
Theresa
_________
Now Rio Theresa you know that Johnny Garza an atty would tell you anything is actionable and anyone can file an intitial suit alleging anything. Initial moving papers in lawsuits usually contain the most outlandish things. It is until court time that most of the nitty gritty has been exposed.
News flash----anyone can comment on anyone's looks, actions or mannerisms. You are no exception when you are found to be hyocritical. You have put youself out there as a public figure in the CRW(hatevers) and before that the CRC and in the beginning Recall the Montgomery School Board while appearing on TV, news, etc.---so give up the poor me attitude.
Ted
Rio Theresa said,
"I will try to avoid saying anything hurtful. That is not my intent."
Where does one begin with this? Try to avoid??? Well one could drive a truck through that sentence loophole.
Is your intent discrimination, bigotry, hate, lying and fear mongering????????? Don't you think your words and actions have been hurtful?
Why don't you tell us what your intent was in not telling petition signers the complete truth in what they were signing? Explain the email between you and Dr. Ruth. We could go on and on.
Apologize for real and not skirt the issue. But I suspect you think you owe no one an apology but everyone else owes you one.
Ted
CRG says...
"The County has with its collective official pen just erased biological distinctions between a man and a woman.
-Indoctrination of our kids.
-No exemption for restrooms, showers, locker rooms.
-Freedom of speech diminished.
-Religious organizations are NOT exempt"
----
Deconstructing the Persecution Complex: What Are Individual Rights?
"The misunderstanding inherent in this use of the persecution complex goes to the basic definition of the rights of the individual. While equally-situated individuals have the right to be treated equally (the antidiscrimination principle), no-one has a right to institutionalize legal discrimination against an innocent group, no matter how much they want to, and no matter what "values" this goal of discrimination is based upon. Thus, "persecution" of discriminators is justified.
Put another way, the individual has the right to do anything that does not infringe upon the rights of others. Unjust discrimination infringes upon another's rights, and is thus not a right that should be valued."
--
Theresa, CRG, Anon, and Tom B.,
Your contention that you should have the "religious" right to define the very humanity of GLBT American persons, is quite worthy of persecution.
It's important that you understand this. To claim the intention to harm others as a moral belief, is to demonstrate that you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong.
It's quite simple really.
Red Baron/Tom B said "Deleting the comments was the right thing to do".
Yeah, right, you hypocrite. You've got no problem with calling transwomen men, but don't let any suggest the same about Theresa.
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