Council Member Gets Threats
Montgomery county recently passed a new law protecting the rights of transgender people. It added the term "gender identity" to the existing nondiscrimination bill, along with race, religion, and other things. The County Council voted unanimously, the County Executive signed it without hesitation, this county is that kind of place. Well, there are lots of places with that kind of law, we're not uniquely liberal, we're just pretty progressive.
The word went out to the, let's say, nutty side of the world, and the letters started coming in. We've covered it here, you had a guy from PFOX saying he hoped the council members daughters got raped, you had a leader of the Republican Party shouting "heil Hitler" in a Council meeting, you had rambling presentations and protests with attendance nearly into the double digits.
Mostly we make fun of those people. There are ignorant ones, people who don't know any better, and we would like to make them stop and think for a minute, and get over it. They don't necessarily mean harm, they just haven't thought some of this through. And there are the hateful ones. We would like to stop them, simply, we expose their lies and faulty logic, and there's nothing left. But sometimes it gets scary, even though we treat them like clowns sometimes they aren't clowns, they're people, and some of them are seriously crazy.
Story from The Sentinel:
Michelle says her group doesn't do this. I'll bet there are two or three of them who get together sometimes and decide a little strategy, let's have a protest or let's go to this or that with signs, and I'll bet you that they really don't say, let's threaten the Council members (or school board members before this). But somehow those kinds of things keep happening, it's not the organization itself but its members, and how do you separate the two?
What the word I'm looking for, disingenuous? A bill doesn't just appear on the floor one day, they vote, and it's done. There was a long process of preparing this thing, these people could have gotten involved at any point. I don't believe it is impossible to schedule a meeting with Council members or their staff, to present your arguments, your facts, and make a persuasive case regarding a pending bill. They say they tried, because one of them once gave an incoherent monologue at public comments, no that's not how it works, if you care you can work with these people.
In typical form, they decided to try to sponsor a referendum after the fact, rather than making their wishes known while the law was being discussed. Oh, and cleverly, they told everybody the real problem has to do with perverted men going into ladies locker-rooms. I really couldn't believe it when they first came out with that, but they have stuck with it, and they got some people to sign those petitions.
There is news coming on that topic, not today, soon.
Ooch! Sorry Michelle, that's happened to me, too. You say something to a reporter with a pencil in their hand, guess what, it gets in the news. At least this reporter had a sense of humor and quoted you asking not to be quoted. Pretty cool self-referential humor, nice.
I'm not going to say anything about Sharon Kass, because ... I'm afraid to. We have received letters sent to our homes, our children have received letters, we get email from Ms. Kass. We are aware of Sharon Kass.
And look, of all the things. How about the environment, development, traffic, crime, prices of stuff, the war? Isn't there something more important? That's the thing that gets me. You can't discriminate against transgender people, so what, when was that ever a problem? How inconvenient is that going to be?
The word went out to the, let's say, nutty side of the world, and the letters started coming in. We've covered it here, you had a guy from PFOX saying he hoped the council members daughters got raped, you had a leader of the Republican Party shouting "heil Hitler" in a Council meeting, you had rambling presentations and protests with attendance nearly into the double digits.
Mostly we make fun of those people. There are ignorant ones, people who don't know any better, and we would like to make them stop and think for a minute, and get over it. They don't necessarily mean harm, they just haven't thought some of this through. And there are the hateful ones. We would like to stop them, simply, we expose their lies and faulty logic, and there's nothing left. But sometimes it gets scary, even though we treat them like clowns sometimes they aren't clowns, they're people, and some of them are seriously crazy.
Story from The Sentinel:
Now she says it's personal and dangerous.
During the last two months, Councilmember Duchy Trachtenberg claims she has received dozens of threats, many of them death threats, from community members opposed to a bill she sponsored that guarantees civil rights for transgender individuals.
According to Trachtenberg, several people sent about 40 pieces of threatening correspondence to her home and office. Many of them were signed, she said, though some used fake names. Some were signed by members of Citizens for a Responsible Government, a group trying to get Trachtenberg's legislation repealed.
"These threats are directed at me because I have been a proponent for and sponsor of legislation protecting the rights of LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender] individuals," Trachtenberg said. "I find it disturbing that these kinds of threats can be made so openly to public officials, threatening their safety."
Michelle Turner, a spokesperson for CRG, said the group doesn't send or support sending threatening letters. "We don't advocate anything like that at all," Turner said. "We're not in this to speak ill of any group or stand in judgment."
A senior policy analyst in Trachtenberg's office, Dr. Dana Beyer, also received threatening correspondence, the council member said. Beyer has been an outspoken opponent to CRG's petition. Trachtenberg Reports Death Threats
Michelle says her group doesn't do this. I'll bet there are two or three of them who get together sometimes and decide a little strategy, let's have a protest or let's go to this or that with signs, and I'll bet you that they really don't say, let's threaten the Council members (or school board members before this). But somehow those kinds of things keep happening, it's not the organization itself but its members, and how do you separate the two?
In November the County Council unanimously passed bill 23-07, a piece of legislation Trachtenberg sponsored that protects transgender individuals against discrimination in housing and employment. Members of CRG believe the law gives pedophiles and sexual predators easy access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.
Earlier this month CRG submitted a petition to the Montgomery County Board of Elections putting a referendum question about repealing what has become known as the Transgender Legislations on the ballot in November. Last week Equality Maryland, the state's largest LGBT advocacy group, filed a lawsuit against the county Board of Elections alleging an improper count.
Turner added that the leaders of CRG prefer a diplomatic approach. "We would be happy to sit down with Duchy [Trachtenberg] and have a civilized dialogue," Turner said. "Unfortunately she's a little hard to get a hold of. Plus, given the attitudes of many of those on the council, it doesn't seem like something they'd want to do."
What the word I'm looking for, disingenuous? A bill doesn't just appear on the floor one day, they vote, and it's done. There was a long process of preparing this thing, these people could have gotten involved at any point. I don't believe it is impossible to schedule a meeting with Council members or their staff, to present your arguments, your facts, and make a persuasive case regarding a pending bill. They say they tried, because one of them once gave an incoherent monologue at public comments, no that's not how it works, if you care you can work with these people.
In typical form, they decided to try to sponsor a referendum after the fact, rather than making their wishes known while the law was being discussed. Oh, and cleverly, they told everybody the real problem has to do with perverted men going into ladies locker-rooms. I really couldn't believe it when they first came out with that, but they have stuck with it, and they got some people to sign those petitions.
There is news coming on that topic, not today, soon.
Trachtenberg said that Sharon Kass, a member of CRG, has sent harassing letters to both her and Beyer. She said Kass suggested in one letter that Trachtenberg should worry about handling her own family before taking on these other issues. Trachtenberg has a son with schizophrenia.
Turner said, however, that Kass is more of a "supporter, and not what we consider a member."
Kass could not be reached for comment by press time, but she replied to an e-mail from The Sentinel requesting comment with e-mails containing anti-gay literature, including a brochure titled "Gay! You don't have to be," and a link to an article titled, "The Desire For A Sex Change: Psychiatrist says sex-change surgery is a collaboration with a mental disorder, not a treatment."
"Every organization has a fringe element - not to say she's on the fringe," Turner said. "We don't necessarily agree with everything she has to say. But don't quote me on that."
Ooch! Sorry Michelle, that's happened to me, too. You say something to a reporter with a pencil in their hand, guess what, it gets in the news. At least this reporter had a sense of humor and quoted you asking not to be quoted. Pretty cool self-referential humor, nice.
I'm not going to say anything about Sharon Kass, because ... I'm afraid to. We have received letters sent to our homes, our children have received letters, we get email from Ms. Kass. We are aware of Sharon Kass.
Trachtenberg said Beyer's two sons were mentioned in one e-mail, saying they are doomed to psychological problems because Beyer is a transgender individual.
One of Beyer's sons is a student at Brown University, the other at the University of Maryland. Beyer could not be reached for comment by press time because County Council is on recess this week.
Trachtenberg declined to release copies of the threatening correspondences because she said police are investigating threats made repeatedly by some individuals. She added that several restraining orders might be issued as a result of the threats.
She read parts of a few letters to The Sentinel over the phone. "Put an end to Bill 23-07 or you won't live too long," said one, signed, Mr. Walker. Others were extremely vulgar, including one that said, "S*** a tranny's d***."
"I think they're just trying to intimidate a council member who is standing up for what's right," Trachtenberg said.
And look, of all the things. How about the environment, development, traffic, crime, prices of stuff, the war? Isn't there something more important? That's the thing that gets me. You can't discriminate against transgender people, so what, when was that ever a problem? How inconvenient is that going to be?
Extra security measures have been taken at the County Council building, and Trachtenberg said she is in the process of installing a home security system because of the threats.
"This isn't the first time I've had death threats made to me," Trachtenberg said. "I've had some threats made because of the feminist work I've done, mostly in relation to reproductive rights."
Still, Trachtenberg said, she is still jarred by the threats. "My husband goes through the mail at home now because he knows how upset I get when I find those things," she said.
50 Comments:
Sharon Kass regularly contacts those that she views as disagreeing with her "thoughts and beliefs."
Her name and nut are regularly used in the same sentence.
Ted
"Every organization has a fringe element - not to say she's on the fringe," Turner said. "We don't necessarily agree with everything she has to say. But don't quote me on that."
Michelle is going to injure her back if she keeps that up.
This will become news when it gets a little more specific and can be explained. Why would CRG send threats when their side is currently winning? They have their referendum certified and it will be voted on in November. They have nothing to gain by sending threats.
The recent behavior of TTF has discredited the transgender bill. In trying to rehabilitate their image, TTF supporters would have more incentive to send threats because it would tend to discredit CRG.
This all happened before back when TTF lost the first round of the curriculum controversy. Supposedly, Council members were receiving threats. I don't remember any resolution of who was doing that. Supposedly, the whole matter was turned over to the police. What happened?
Why do these threats only happen when TTF is losing? The curriculum was released in the fall. I don't recall any threats being publicized then. Could it be that public officials receive threats on a regular basis but only publicize them when they think they can get some political mileage out of them?
Also, Jim here tries to associate a Sharon Kass with these threats and yet doesn't offer examples. I don't know the individual but the comments Jim offered, while rude and inappropriately personal, are not threatening in any way nor do they meet the definition of "harassment", as Jim implies.
Hopefully, the results of the investigation will be publicly released so the public will be able to see what's going on.
Poor deluded anon
Ted
The police and the FBI have all the reports, and several of them have been made public.
Who do the public reports show having made threats, Dana?
Andrea- not anon
Don't try to pull this crap, nutty anon. The letters came from CRG type people- don't try to turn this around on us. Weepy Ruth claimed she got threats- she is not one of us. I wouldn't even go to Shady Grove hospital anymore.
I am not saying they are CRG members sending threats/idiotic remarks- we know there are only 12 of them- but their supporters?- the lovely Adol Williams, the drooling Tres Kerns and who knows what else comes out of the woodwork when you support hatred and bigotry.
As to the remarks, I know Dana Beyer and I know her kids and have known them for years. I'd take that family and their stability over any of the CRG/Showernuts. Hatred and bigotry are not good family values- and I don't think children grow well in that sort of environment.
AnonFreak Said, "Also, Jim here tries to associate a Sharon Kass with these threats and yet doesn't offer examples. I don't know the individual but the comments Jim offered, while rude and inappropriately personal, are not threatening in any way nor do they meet the definition of "harassment", as Jim implies."
Umm. So, are you saying that you just didn't read the examples posted in The Sentinel? Wow. Your stupidity continues to ring true.
Oh, your name isn't Gary W., is it AnonFreak? Just wondering.
"Don't try to pull this crap, nutty anon. The letters came from CRG type people- don't try to turn this around on us."
Well, could we hear, then, who was making these threats last time TTF and the Council were alleging this? What is in the reports that Dana says the police and FBI have made public.
"Umm. So, are you saying that you just didn't read the examples posted in The Sentinel?"
I read rude comments. I didn't read any threats. Actually, Jim may have a point about harassment though. Attacking the children of TTfers is kind of intimidation since people obviously would like to protect their kids from nasty comments in the media . Hopefully, if she supports CRG, one of them could call her and ask her to stop that kind of thing.
She most certainly does support the CRG/C as she is a member. This is a prime example of how intimately related CRG/C and the Westboro Baptist Church are. SCARY-yes. But NOT shocking.
"She most certainly does support the CRG/C as she is a member. This is a prime example of how intimately related CRG/C and the Westboro Baptist Church are."
They are no more intimately related than is NAMBLA and TTF.
"SCARY-yes. But NOT shocking."
What's scary is that we have inflammatory liars like you in our society.
I am not liar, AnonFreak and you KNOW it.
What would you call the lies and plethora of hoaxes by the CRG/C? It's shameful is what it is.
You're just mad because those cats are coming out of the bag and those skeletons are being cleaned from the closets (and rightfully so!).
By the way, you never answered my question, is your name Gary?
:o)
"I am not liar"
Here's a lie you typed, Derrick.:
"This is a prime example of how intimately related CRG/C and the Westboro Baptist Church are"
They aren't related in any way.
You know that. You lied.
Interesting ... I received a few of her e-mails when I was representing TTF and Metro DC PFLAG in the curriculum dispute, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one whose e-mail in-box has been blessed. The e-mails were pretty hate-filled, but I can't say they were threatening -- unless you count the fact she sent one to the managing partners of my firm and several others in the hope of getting me in some kind of trouble. Of course, the universal reaction of my partners was, "We're glad you're in this case. Do you need any of us to help out?"
Jon
Yeah, I agree, Jon. The whole thing where this person is trying to create social problems for people can be a form of intimidation. Sounds like a cult tactic. CRG should really talk to this person.
AnonFreak--
I am still confused... Can your prove that CRG/C and the Westboro Baptist Church are not related and don't support each other? I've never seen any official statement of them not being connected with each other. I'm waiting for your proof...but I won't hold my breath.
I didn't say the police and FBI have made them public -- you always twist and distort my words along with everyone else's here.
I said they are part of the public record. There are many more than those, but it is not appropriate to name names at this point.
I am confused, Derrick. Can your prove that you and Westboro Baptist Church are not related and don't support each other? I've never seen any official statement of you not being connected with them. I'm waiting for your proof...but I won't hold my breath.
"I didn't say the police and FBI have made them public -- you always twist and distort my words along with everyone else's here.
I said they are part of the public record. There are many more than those, but it is not appropriate to name names at this point."
Well, maybe Jim should stop throwing these accusations on the web without proof. Would you agree?
So, you're ten-years-old, AnonFreak?? (plagiarizing exactly what I said to you without citing it properly...and playing copy-cat). Hahaha.
Well, maybe Jim should stop throwing these accusations on the web without proof.
Anon, it's not clear that you realize that the bulk of this post is a news story published in the Sentinel.
JimK
AnonFreak...you're not Gary Whiteman by chance are you?
"Michelle says her group doesn't do this. I'll bet there are two or three of them who get together sometimes and decide a little strategy, let's have a protest or let's go to this or that with signs, and I'll bet you that they really don't say, let's threaten the Council members (or school board members before this). But somehow those kinds of things keep happening, it's not the organization itself but its members, and how do you separate the two?"
That's what you said, Jim. But there is no confirmation that these threats are from CRG members. If you have proof, let us know.
I am confused, Derrick. Can your prove that you and Westboro Baptist Church are not related and don't support each other? I've never seen any official statement of you not being connected with them. I'm waiting for your proof...but I won't hold my breath.
The CRW and Westboro baptist are both anti-gay admitted Christians. They have a lot in common.
Well, we'll see eventually if any of those who sent the hate mail and death threats are members of CRW. For the time being, note that Michelle didn't disown Sharon Kass, just pushed her farther to the fringe. Not bad for a fringe group leader herself.
An interesting point is that it is likely that some of the writers of those threats were in attendance at Clarksburg, because the mail stopped coming just after the threats were made public. I don't think it was a coincidence.
"The CRW and Westboro baptist are both anti-gay admitted Christians. They have a lot in common."
Both NAMBLA and TTF favor gay rights. So do the incarcerated members of the Symbionese Liberation Army. Not to mention John Wayne Gacy. Hitler also, early in his reign, urged his staff not to judge gays.
CRW is not a Christian organization. Many religions are involved including Mormons and Muslims.
Andrea- not anon
Well, perhaps the messages are not from the dues paying(that might be 10 people -not 12) RG/Notmyshowernuts. But they are their supporters. I doubt even the likes of the less tightly wound CRGers like Bianca/retta/precious or the rambling Susan Jamison(guess a lawyer knows better) would write threats. People who are haters sometimes are csreless though- they wouldn't actually do you harm- they just say stuff like "hope God strikes you dead"(because of course, they think God listens to nasty smallminded people) or " hope you get hit by a bus". What did the CRG petition gatherer tell me- "You should have been aborted." Not a threat, too late for that- still,that sort of guy might write something nastier- no one can say who it was- or maybe they can.
"Well, we'll see eventually if any of those who sent the hate mail and death threats are members of CRW."
Thanks for the honesty, Dana. In the same way CRG should talk to Kass, you should probably talk to Jim and tell him to stop saying CRG members are threatening the Council unless he knows it to be a fact.
"But they are their supporters."
You don't know that Andrea.
Will we ever hear the end of your fascinating story about when you went out to harass lawfully petitioning citizens and instigated a shouting match with them?
I hope not. Tall tales are an American art form.
Anon,
You don't find it fascinating that a person who is ostensibly "protecting women and children" [sic] would tell someone with whom they disagree that she should have been aborted? I do.
Sharon Kass. Why am I not surprised. Like Jon, we received hateful letters from her during the curriculum struggle.
But while she tried to get Jon's law firm to dump him, in my case she tried to get my wife to dump me. Not surprisingly, my wife's reaction was essentially the same as Jon's law firm.
David Fishback
"You don't find it fascinating that a person who is ostensibly "protecting women and children" [sic] would tell someone with whom they disagree that she should have been aborted? I do."
Well, you're in luck, DW. I'm quite certain you'll have future opportunity to be entralled by Andrea's story. Little irrelevant anecdotes are about what's left of TTF's arguments.
You're probably also fascinated by a blog called "teach them facts" where its creators actually support the opposite.
I find it interesting that you don't consider Mormons Christians.
None of the death threats was signed by any of the 17 members of the inner circle of CRG. That doesn't mean that none of the unsigned was, however. It doesn't matter, though, because it's your side in this. And your pathetic attempts to associate ttf with fringe groups and Nazis again marks you as fringe of the fringe.
The individuals with whom ttf and others were engaged were not lawfully collecting signatures. They were in violation of their agreement with Giant.
They also were not lawfully collecting signatures in the sense of presenting the case "fairly and accurately," and in so doing put their entire enterprise in great risk. You can bloviate all you want, but there are statutes which present very strict rules for petitions, which are a derogation of the proper legislative function of government. Your team made so many errors it will be hard to know where to start in presenting them to the court.
"None of the death threats was signed by any of the 17 members of the inner circle of CRG. That doesn't mean that none of the unsigned was, however."
Of course, it doesn't mean you didn't personally make the threats to make them look bad either. That would make more sense. Point is, it hasn't been disclosed who made the threats and whose "side", if any, they were on. Stop making unsubstantiated allegations. It's the moral equivalent of lying.
"It doesn't matter, though, because it's your side in this. And your pathetic attempts to associate ttf with fringe groups and Nazis again marks you as fringe of the fringe."
I wasn't making such an attempt and you know it. I was comparing the validity of doing that to the attempt by the type of morons who support TTF to try to insinuate that CRG is associated with Westboro Baptist Church. You may think lying is a legitimate tactic but it won't bring you civility if you ain't civil.
I had nothing to do with any linking to Westboro Church. I think it's over the line but also unnecessary, because there are enough hateful churches in this country which pose as more mainline denominations.
Your attempt to accuse ttf of fabricating death threats is a farce. You're doing so because you realize how hateful this makes you appear to the general population, and I have little doubt that many of your own members are appalled at the misbehavior of those who are responsible.
As for fabrications, just wait until your side has to defend its fabrications under oath.
It's not TTF who is trying to line-up CRG with the WBC-it's MY interpretation.
I just don't see the difference between CRG and WBC. Can you explain it, AnonFreak?
Anonymous:
yes, we know that CRG's few members are not all Christians. But we also know that you are all zealots and religious bigots and haters of the worst kind. There is a wide chasm between those who really practice Christ's teachings and those who hide behind their flawed interpretation of what their religion teaches them in order to justify hatred. I don't believe or accept that Christianity or Islam teaches the kind of hate that you represent. You give religion a bad name!
"Your attempt to accuse ttf of fabricating death threats is a farce."
I didn't attempt to do that. I said it is unknown who did it. My point is, if you're going to start guessing, then the TTF side has more to gain than CRG by these threats. Truth is, I don't know if any actually threats happened. I'm just taking TTF's word for it.
Also unknown is how many are "death" threats v. threat of another kind v. just rude speech. Jim seem to blur it all together, which is typical for TTF. Based on the examples Jim has used so far, I wouldn't be surprised if the "death" threat was something like "your political career is dead". I also wouldn't be surprised if there were only one like that.
When you've got some facts to disclose, let us know.
"I had nothing to do with any linking to Westboro Church. I think it's over the line but also unnecessary, because there are enough hateful churches in this country which pose as more mainline denominations."
Problem is, Dana, you think any notion that homosexuality is not normal is hateful. You're engaging in extremism.
We're all taking the Gazette's word for the death threats and the police and FBI investigations will get to the truth so you can stop spinning your paranoid delusions about TTF supporters sending death threats to politicians who support our views. The CRWeirdos have a long history of making threats.
A history lesson for those who prefer to forget:
"we are deadly serious"
At the last Board of Education meeting, (Tuesday, 12/11/[04]), Michelle Turner, President of the RecallMontgomerySchoolBoard group, offered public comments, and apologized to Sharon Cox and the Board for the behavior of some of the recall group's supporters. Apparently, threatening messages were posted on their message board, and the BOE also received some pretty nasty phone calls and letters.
It may be that Michelle Turner knew that the very next day, Wednesday, 12/12[04], the Gazette was to print an article titled Cox avoids Germantown meeting after receiving threats:
Members of the Board of Education canceled their appearance at Monday's Germantown Citizens Association meeting on the proposed sex education curriculum after receiving threats and slanderous comments on an anti-curriculum Web site.
(See Jim Kennedy's post for more on that story.)
Yesterday, on the Einstein High School listserve, in responding to criticism about threats being made at the recall group's site, Michelle offered this:
The CRC website was changed due to the nastiness/threats being posted not only towards the CRC but the BoE as well. We tried rules of decorum to no avail.
Michelle Turner
Now, the interesting thing about that statement, is Michelle's use of the word "we". I wondered (and I asked)...who is "we"? I was curious because it sounded to me like she was trying to say that the leadership of the recall group "tried rules of decorum." And in fact, that is what she meant, because she responded to my question saying that "we" referred to her group's Executive Committee.
Fair enough. So the leaders were trying to reign in some of the more hotheaded fringe supporters?
Or...
Maybe it was some of the leaders themselves who, at best, sought to stir up an already angry crowd with what could be construed as some veiled threats of their own.
Here's a screenshot of a message posted to the recall site's message board by none other than Steve Fisher, their official Spokesperson and Media/PR guy. The use of the word deadly is pretty intense:
We should flood their email system so they realize that we are deadly serious about this stuff.
STF
[Date 11/11/2004] Name: Steve stfisher21@cs.com, [Msgid=736627][IP add=69.140.16...]
And I come back to Michelle's word decorum. Interesting word, although I'm not sure I'd use it to describe this post, again, from Mr. Fisher:
If our BOE is not the current equivalent of "Animal Farm" I don't know what is.
I am so upset about this. Talk about the lunatics running the asylum!
[Date 11/11/2004] Name: Steve stfisher21@cs.com, [Msgid=736649] [IP A...
Did he have to call the BOE animals and lunatics? Hmm...decorum.
And what's really hilarious, is that while in yet another post he continues in this decorous vein by calling the BOE "knuckleheads", Mr. Fisher explains that his children do not attend Montgomery County Public Schools. If his kids aren't even in Montgomery County Public Schools, for the life of me, I can't understand why he's so irrate...or why he's the recall group's spokesperson. Maybe they like his committment to decorum.
posted by Maryam Balbed at 11:21 AM
Thursday, January 13, 2005
"We're all taking the Gazette's word for the death threats and the police and FBI investigations will get to the truth"
That's what we did a couple of years ago and what became of it. Did they actually find that CRC was making threats? Not that I've heard of. When Fisher said he was "deadly" serious, it was probably a poor choice of words given the sensitivity of the debate at the time. Still, it was a figure of speech, not a threat. That TTF made such a deal of it makes one wonder what the current supposed "threats" actually say.
As I said before, these accusations only seem to arise when TTF's agenda hits a snag. When CRG's agenda is advancing, why would they do something like that?
"so you can stop spinning your paranoid delusions about TTF supporters sending death threats to politicians who support our views."
Actually, I didn't spin any delusions. TTF did. They are accusing CRG of these threats. I simply stated that if we're going to play Sherlock Holmes and look for likely suspects, TTF has more of a motive to do this. It helps them more, at a time when their agenda needs help.
"The CRWeirdos have a long history of making threats."
TTF has a long history of stretching the truth and making unsubstantiated accusations.
I've said that the threats are part of the police files and public record. And some of the threats are more explicit than those referred to by Maryam.
You can take the time out of your day to check them out for yourself.
You did imply that ttf fabricated them.
I never said ALL the materials were death threats. My sons, for instance, have not received death threats -- just hate mail. Feel better?
And, yes, I believe sexual orientation is natural and normal, and anyone who is obsessed with anyone's sexual orientation is hateful. Like anything else, one can engage in self-destructive and hurtful behavior, but the annals of human history are filled overwhelmingly with examples of heterosexuals causing most of the damage.
LGBT people are just as entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as heterosexual people are. You should learn to live and let live.
Snag? What snag?
Question: That's what we did a couple of years ago and what became of it. Did they actually find that CRC was making threats?
Answer: Yes. Michelle Turner, President of the RecallMontgomerySchoolBoard group, offered public comments, and apologized to Sharon Cox and the Board for the behavior of some of the recall group's supporters.
http://www.teachthefacts.org/archives/2005_01_01_vigilance-archive.html
"Recall" Web Site Threatens School Board
Ted
"I've said that the threats are part of the police files and public record. And some of the threats are more explicit than those referred to by Maryam.
You can take the time out of your day to check them out for yourself."
It's increasingly obvious here that there is no evidence that any CRG/CRC members have issued any type of threat other than political consequences to anyone in TTF or on the County Council either now or at any time since the curriculum controversy began. If they were this evidence, these TTF members would have posted it.
"You did imply that ttf fabricated them."
No, I said that is as likely as the scenario implied by the scurrilous Jim Kennedy.
"I never said ALL the materials were death threats. My sons, for instance, have not received death threats -- just hate mail. Feel better?"
I never you said ALL the materials were death threats.
"And, yes, I believe sexual orientation is natural and normal, and anyone who is obsessed with anyone's sexual orientation is hateful."
Well, you're wrong on both counts and you need to make clear when constantly shout "hate, hate, hate", that you think the mere belief in traditional morality is hateful.
"Like anything else, one can engage in self-destructive and hurtful behavior, but the annals of human history are filled overwhelmingly with examples of heterosexuals causing most of the damage."
That's like saying the annals of human history are filled overwhelmingly with examples of meat-eaters causing most of the damage. Straights aren't remarkable. Gays are.
"LGBT people are just as entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as heterosexual people are."
Couldn't agree more.
"You should learn to live and let live."
I always do. You are the one trying to pass laws to tell everyone else how to act. I'd prefer government stay out of the business of controlling social interactions. Mind your own business.
You make my point. Your "traditional morality" -- whatever that is -- is responsible for the death and destruction throughout human history. What you continue to call "family values" as written in my Bible and yours are inclusive of some of the most hateful and destructive words and actions used and performed throughout history.
Now I am able to read my history and recognize that it is about human beings and written by human beings, and therefore is flawed and demonstrative of the struggles we all have. You think that one sentence, repeated once, from a priestly code in Leviticus which has been ignored/transcended for nearly two thousand years is what should drive not only your religious beliefs but your political beliefs as well. Your goal is the imposition of those beliefs on all of us, not your pathetic attempt to claim you're somehow a libertarian.
I've been a libertarian, I know libertarians, and you're no libertarian.
And on the earlier issues -- you've had proof placed before you and you choose to ignore it. I've told you the death threats are part of the public record, but you still call Jim "scurrilous." You're such an effective spokesman for traditional values.
I'd prefer government stay out of the business of controlling social interactions").... until you are discriminated against - but, that is hardly likely as you are a member of the privileged white male class. How smug and supercilious you are, Anonymous!
RT
Charge: It's increasingly obvious here that there is no evidence that any CRG/CRC members have issued any type of threat other than political consequences to anyone in TTF or on the County Council either now or at any time since the curriculum controversy began. If they [sic] were this evidence, these TTF members would have posted it.
Fact: Michelle Turner, President of the RecallMontgomerySchoolBoard group, offered public comments, and apologized to Sharon Cox and the Board for the behavior of some of the recall group's supporters. Apparently, threatening messages were posted on their message board...
Michelle Turner, a spokesperson for CRG, said the group doesn't send or support sending threatening letters. "We don't advocate anything like that at all," Turner said. "We're not in this to speak ill of any group or stand in judgment."
Turner went on to say that the group is overjoyed with the new school curriculum and that they will soon be offering job placement services that specialize in aiding the transgendered citizens of Montgomery County find work.
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