CRW Sounding a Little Unenthusiastic
The Citizens for a Responsible Whatever don't seem quite as cheerful as usual in today's newsletter. It may be occurring to them that their big plans are unraveling.
Tonight the Montgomery County Council is having a town hall meeting at Little Bennett Elementary School in Clarksburg, at 8 o'clock. Looks like the CRW would like to rally the troops to show up and ask questions about bathrooms.
Here's how they put it:
I try to imagine being someone who describes a law against discrimination as "scrapping biology."
Read that again. Here's your choice: scrap biology or pay a big fine.
And they wonder why people are not convinced.
Oh, and they thought of another terrible thing that will happen, besides perverted men hanging around ladies rooms, if discrimination against transgender people is outlawed:
I don't think I'll be able to sleep, knowing that this might happen. First scrapping biology, and now this.
And it seems to me they have surprisingly little to say about the lawsuit against the Board of Elections:
I kind of like the sound of that: Mont-ogmery. It sounds like a racehorse, doesn't it? TTF should name our vacation estate that: Villa Mont-ogmery. In fact, the laundry list is long. I've seen those petitions, they are a mess.
As for silencing voices, there is something here we call "the law." If you gather petition signatures you have to do it "legally." This is a lot of work, I understand, and it can be very inconvenient at times, but the citizens of the county have the "right" to see that the law is enforced appropriately.
As you know, I'm not very political at all, so I don't know how to read between the lines of this next piece of information, but it is clearly meant to be snide or sarcastic in some way, like the way they mention things that happen in Massachusetts.
Maybe Takoma Park is similar to Massachusetts, is that the deal?
Whatever, I am guessing that these names trigger some kind of salivation among the CRW in-crowd.
You get the feeling they are having a bit of a hard time with all this.
I have something to say about that last comment. Equality Maryland is a top-notch organization, tirelessly fighting for the rights of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. I don't know how much money they have or where it comes from, but they are just the kind of organization that deserves to be supported generously.
As for the core of nuts who make up the CRW -- formerly Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum, now Citizens for a Responsible Government, the exact same people -- we know they have had the support of national rightwing groups, they are connected to Concerned Women for America, Eagle Forum, Liberty Counsel, Thomas More Legal Center, Alliance Defense Fund -- the Republican Party has even sent people to their meetings. If they aren't getting any support at this point in time, I will suggest a reason for it. No matter what they are fighting for, their presentation is so filled with lies and distortions and absurd reasoning that anybody can see what they're really up to. They are anti-gay, anti-transgender bigots, and the people of this county don't want anything to do with them. They are completely ineffective, and investing in them is a waste of money.
They do serve a function for the larger rightwing organizations, and that is that they may be able to get a larger proportion of conservatives to go out and vote. For instance, if they get this referendum on the ballot in November, everybody who hates transgender people will go out and vote, even though they know that their conservative political candidates don't have a chance of winning. So, from a political point of view, even though they'll lose this fight just like they've lost the others, at least they provide a rallying point for the rightwing extremists in our liberal county. It will never make a difference, there is simply no way Montgomery County is going to elect somebody like them for any government position, and the groups with the money know this. If the CRW doesn't have any grants or funding, it is because the national organizations understand that it would be money flushed down the toilet.
Tonight the Montgomery County Council is having a town hall meeting at Little Bennett Elementary School in Clarksburg, at 8 o'clock. Looks like the CRW would like to rally the troops to show up and ask questions about bathrooms.
Here's how they put it:
On Wednesday March 19 (Today) we have a wonderful opportunity to ask the Council questions about this ridiculous legislation which will force MC citizens to scrap biology or potentially face hefty fines for harassment and discrimination.
I try to imagine being someone who describes a law against discrimination as "scrapping biology."
Read that again. Here's your choice: scrap biology or pay a big fine.
And they wonder why people are not convinced.
Oh, and they thought of another terrible thing that will happen, besides perverted men hanging around ladies rooms, if discrimination against transgender people is outlawed:
Another troubling loophole is that a female who advertises for a roommate could be charged with discrimination if she tells a male transvestite applicant, 'no thanks'.
I don't think I'll be able to sleep, knowing that this might happen. First scrapping biology, and now this.
And it seems to me they have surprisingly little to say about the lawsuit against the Board of Elections:
Attorney Jonathan Shurberg is claiming errors by the Board of Elections, and forgery, and fraud in petition collection. The laundry list of alleged wrongs is long. Anything to silence the voice of Montogmery County Citizens who signed the petition.
I kind of like the sound of that: Mont-ogmery. It sounds like a racehorse, doesn't it? TTF should name our vacation estate that: Villa Mont-ogmery. In fact, the laundry list is long. I've seen those petitions, they are a mess.
As for silencing voices, there is something here we call "the law." If you gather petition signatures you have to do it "legally." This is a lot of work, I understand, and it can be very inconvenient at times, but the citizens of the county have the "right" to see that the law is enforced appropriately.
As you know, I'm not very political at all, so I don't know how to read between the lines of this next piece of information, but it is clearly meant to be snide or sarcastic in some way, like the way they mention things that happen in Massachusetts.
Two of the plaintiffs include former Progressive Maryland president and former state delegate candidate Elbridge James and current Takoma Park mayor Bruce Williams.
Maybe Takoma Park is similar to Massachusetts, is that the deal?
Whatever, I am guessing that these names trigger some kind of salivation among the CRW in-crowd.
You get the feeling they are having a bit of a hard time with all this.
We are preparing to defend the petition signatures,and seeking legal counsel. We would appreciate your support. Funds are desperately as well needed for ads, printing materials, robo calls (which proved so successful), postage, and many, many other costs.
If you feel our cause needs to succeed, please consider a small donation of $15, $25, $50 (or whatever you feel comfortable giving). Donations are not tax deductible. Unlike Equality Maryland, we don't get foundation grants funded by billionaires.
I have something to say about that last comment. Equality Maryland is a top-notch organization, tirelessly fighting for the rights of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. I don't know how much money they have or where it comes from, but they are just the kind of organization that deserves to be supported generously.
As for the core of nuts who make up the CRW -- formerly Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum, now Citizens for a Responsible Government, the exact same people -- we know they have had the support of national rightwing groups, they are connected to Concerned Women for America, Eagle Forum, Liberty Counsel, Thomas More Legal Center, Alliance Defense Fund -- the Republican Party has even sent people to their meetings. If they aren't getting any support at this point in time, I will suggest a reason for it. No matter what they are fighting for, their presentation is so filled with lies and distortions and absurd reasoning that anybody can see what they're really up to. They are anti-gay, anti-transgender bigots, and the people of this county don't want anything to do with them. They are completely ineffective, and investing in them is a waste of money.
They do serve a function for the larger rightwing organizations, and that is that they may be able to get a larger proportion of conservatives to go out and vote. For instance, if they get this referendum on the ballot in November, everybody who hates transgender people will go out and vote, even though they know that their conservative political candidates don't have a chance of winning. So, from a political point of view, even though they'll lose this fight just like they've lost the others, at least they provide a rallying point for the rightwing extremists in our liberal county. It will never make a difference, there is simply no way Montgomery County is going to elect somebody like them for any government position, and the groups with the money know this. If the CRW doesn't have any grants or funding, it is because the national organizations understand that it would be money flushed down the toilet.
posted by JimK at 1:17 PM
56 Comments:
Andrea-not anon
I am calling Dan Furmansky right now- I want to meet the billionaires of EQMD.
I hope the same people who went into their retirement funds to support the Showerheads will drain their children's college funds to support the fake signature suit. Won't the Arizona(SW bigots)alliance do this for free?
Having a M.A. in linguistics is great! Not only can I recognize fake signatures/dates/names but I can also think for myself!!!
We have to be sure that the CRG/G/BIGOTS are recognized as they are: LIARS, CHEATERS, ANTI-CHRISTS!
If the CRW doesn't have any grants or funding, it is because the national organizations understand that it would be money flushed down the toilet.
Is that the ladies room or mens room toilet???
Anon said, "Is that the ladies room or mens room toilet???"
EVERY SINGLE TOILET in the WORLD!!!
Excerpt from new APA brochure that concedes that homosexuality is not innate. Will someone forward to the deluded MC sex-ed committee? This is going to be inconvenient to explain to school kids.:
"There is no consensus among scientists
about the exact reasons that an individual
develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or
lesbian orientation. Although much research
has examined the possible genetic, hormonal,
developmental, social, and cultural influences
on sexual orientation, no findings have
emerged that permit scientists to conclude
that sexual orientation is determined by any
particular factor or factors. Many think that
nature and nurture both play complex roles;"
Red Baron, that's not a concession that gayness is not innate. Its a statement that they are unsure of the actual causes. In order to concede that gayness is not innate one would have to know exactly what causes gayness and that the cause is non-biological.
While no single study is conclusive, many,many studies point to a biological cause of gayness and the concensus amongst non-religionists is that it is indeed innate
So, AnonFreak. I don't see the word "innate" in there anywhere.
You're still a freak (which is just fine by me, since I am not the one who discriminates-- YOU are!!!!)
Derrick
"While no single study is conclusive, many,many studies point to a biological cause of gayness"
Funny that this pamphlet from the APA doesn't bring that point up. You guys have pretended you believe deeply in the infallibility of professional organizations. They say all these studies have produced no conclusion or, even, consensus.
"and the concensus amongst non-religionists is that it is indeed innate"
Well, if that's true then most scientists must be "religionists" because the APA says scientists haven't reached consensus.
"So, AnonFreak. I don't see the word "innate" in there anywhere."
That's because, Sir Derrick the Slick, you aren't well educated. When it gives "nurture" equal time with "nature", the APA is saying there is no cause to conclude that homosexuality is innate.
Get a dictionary, man. It could only help.
Anonymous, you really should stop trying to pass Focus on the Family press releases here.
If you HAD read the actual APA brochure, you would have seen the statement condeming yet again reparative therapy (i.e.- "ex-gay" therapy.)
I suggest you read either the brochure or go to the following link for the real story behind your distracting deception - http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2008/03/yea-ex-gays-you.html#more
One more thing - real cute of you to try and change the subject of the post.
I read the brochure, Alvin. The part I posted was not out of context. It is a repudiation of a lie that TTF has been telling for some time and which they persuaded the local schools to teach: that scientists agree that homosexuality is innate.
You are now countering with an argument that TTF always resorts to when convenient and pretends to abhor at other times: that innateness and immutability are the same.
Make up your mind.
And make up your mind to support factual teaching in the schools.
You know as well as I do that the reason that TTF wants the schools to teach that homosexuality is innate is not because it is factual but because they think it undermines traditional religious beliefs. It is, thus, an unconstitutional attack on religious freedom, a governmental entity favoring liberal denominations over traditional ones.
Anonymous said: "You know as well as I do that the reason that TTF wants the schools to teach that homosexuality is innate is not because it is factual but because they think it undermines traditional religious beliefs. It is, thus, an unconstitutional attack on religious freedom, a governmental entity favoring liberal denominations over traditional ones."
You might recall your efforts to cleanse the curriculum of any reference to religious beliefs. Now you are bemoaning that the curriculum doesn't reflect your particular beliefs. You can't have it both ways.
You are obviously a paranoiac delusionally psychotic individual. Poor religious believer - everybody in the world is against you. Boo hoo.
No, anonymous,
TFF wants the schools to teach factual information unencumbered by religious beliefs.
And you know what? the majority of parents, the school district, AND the courts side with them.
You're wrong, Alvin. There is no proof that homosexuality is innate. Not only that, as we see attested to by this pamphlet from APA, it is not even a consensus among scientists that leans either to favor innateness vs. environmental factors.
Again, I'm not saying that we should lie if science seems to contradict religious belief. That's not what's going on here. TTF and its supporters are lying about the extent of scientific evidence to attack traditional religious belief. They are lying about the facts in order to get the government to respect the establishment of liberal religious denominations.
"You might recall your efforts to cleanse the curriculum of any reference to religious beliefs. Now you are bemoaning that the curriculum doesn't reflect your particular beliefs. You can't have it both ways."
I'm not "bemoaning that the curriculum doesn't reflect your particular beliefs". I'm pointing out that the curriculum is reflecting the viewpoint of liberal religious denominations without factual basis. That's unconstitutional.
I think the "is or isn't homosexuality innate" brouhaha you and CRW keep bringing up has been answer consistently on this blog.
But you do have something there. This ENTIRE thing has been a plot by TFF to overturn "traditional values."
Actually TFF is a part of a HUGE conglomerate of Godless organizations doing this under the auspices of a baldheaded leader stroking a white Persian cat.
Someone call James Bond (eyes rolling).
The only reason I'm being sarcastic, anonymous is because you are sounding like a broken record
No need to apologize, Alvin. Nothing wrong with a little sarcasm when well done.
This however:
"I think the "is or isn't homosexuality innate" brouhaha you and CRW keep bringing up has been answer consistently on this blog."
is a very jaded point of view. Consistent lying is still lying. It is not a trivial or unimportant matter if homosexuality is innate. If it isn't, there is a near certainty that, even if it can't be cured once the condition has set in, it can be prevented by eliminating the factors that cause it.
If a generation is taught to believe that homosexuality is innate, research into the field will be biased and the day when the cause is discovered will be delayed.
It's a public health issue.
This is what the AFA and other hate-based groups are sending to community members and schools around the country about the Day of Silence on April 25th :
From: "AFA ActionAlert"
AFA ActionAlert Having problems viewing this e-mail message?
href="http://outbound.afa.net:80/track?type=click&mailingid=dos_030508&messageid=dos_030508&databaseid=1234&serial=1181234197&emailid=hsheley@yahoo.com&userid=4035834&extra=&&&100&&&http://www.afa.net/emails/transform.asp?x=dos_030508&s=browser&y=2008&m=03">Click here.
If your child's school observes the homosexual sponsored "Day of Silence," keep your child at home April 25. Dear howard, Friday, April 25, several thousand schools across the nation will be observing "Day of Silence (DOS)." DOS is a nationwide push to promote the homosexual lifestyle in public schools.
AFA is joining other family-oriented groups in urging parents to keep their children at home that day if their local school is participating in the DOS project. By remaining silent, the intent of the pro-homosexual students is to disrupt the classes while promoting the homosexual lifestyle.
DOS is sponsored by an activist homosexual group, the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN). DOS leads the students to believe that every person who identifies as a homosexual, bisexual or cross-dresser is a victim of ongoing, unrelenting harassment and hate. Students are taught that homosexuality is a worthy lifestyle, homosexuality has
few or no risks, and individuals are born homosexual and cannot change. Those who oppose such teaching are characterized as ignorant and hateful bigots.
Click here for Frequently Asked Questions about the Day of Silence:
Take Action!
What should parents do? Check with your local school principal to see if your child's school will be participating in DOS. If the school is participating, notify other parents about DOS and ask them to join in keeping their children out of school on that day.
href="http://outbound.afa.net:80/track?type=click&mailingid=dos_030508&messageid=dos_030508&databaseid=1234&serial=1181234197&emailid=hsheley@yahoo.com&userid=4035834&extra=&&&102&&&http://www.missionamerica.com/agenda.php?articlenum=78" target="_blank">Here is a partial list of schools which are expected to participate in DOS: If your school is listed, call your local school and ascertain whether they officially or passively allow students to observe "Day of Silence." If your school is listed, please double-check with your local school to see if the school is actually sponsoring DOS. Sometimes the "participation" turns out to be a handful of kids who are saying they have a homosexual club and are observing this protest day, but without school endorsement. We sincerely hope your school, if listed, is not actually an official sponsor. If it is not, we will take them off the list, if a school official asks us to do
so. Please e-mail your correction to editor@missionamerica.com.
Some tips:
Be sure of the date that DOS is planned for your school. (The national date is April 25, but some schools observe DOS on a different date.) Inform the school of your intention to keep your child home on that date and explain why. Click here for a sample letter. Explain to your
children why you're taking a stand: Homosexual behavior is not an innate identity; it is a sinful, unnatural and destructive behavior. No school should advance a physically, emotionally, and spiritually destructive sexual lifestyle to students. Encourage your church leadership to follow the bold example of Pastor Ken Hutcherson who is vocally opposing "Day of Silence" in his community in Redmond, Washington. For his story, click here.
track?type="click&mailingid=dos_030508&messageid=dos_030508&databaseid=1234&serial=1181234197&emailid=hsheley@yahoo.com&userid=4035834&extra=&&&106&&&">
Thank you for caring enough to get involved. If you feel our efforts are worthy of support, would
you consider making a small tax-deductible contribution? Click here to make a donation.
Sincerely,
Donald E. Wildmon, Founder and Chairman American Family Association
I'm not "bemoaning that the curriculum doesn't reflect your particular beliefs". I'm pointing out that the curriculum is reflecting the viewpoint of liberal religious denominations without factual basis. That's unconstitutional.
Bully for your legal opinion, are you a lawyer? Your Thomas Moore and Liberty Counsel lawyers disagreed with that idea and refused to pursue it in federal court because they didn't want to be laughed out of it. In fact, the Thomas Moore marine did argue the "homosexuality is innate is not factual" before Judge Rowan in a Maryland court and Rowan ruled in MCPS's favor as follows:
...Respondents noted that the lessons did not teach that homosexuality was innate, but that “there is no single reason why some people are homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual” but that “according to the American Psychological Association, sexual orientation results from an interaction of cognitive, environmental and biological factors,” and that “sexual orientation is innate and a complex part of one’s personality.”
Blow all the smoke you want out here on the Internet in the court of public opinion. Only real court counts and your side lost that argument. You lost it at the County and State Boards of Education too.
And you can argue about "homosexuality" being innate or not until you're blue in the face and it won't matter because that's not what the curriculum says. As Judge Rowan got right, the curriculum says "sexual orientation" is innate and a complex part of one's personality.
So they want to keep children out of schoo during the Day of Silence.
That's a switch. I guess their "Day of Truth" wasn't working so they decided to switch tactics.
And one more thing - AMEN Aunt Bea!!
"...Respondents noted that the lessons did not teach that homosexuality was innate, but that “there is no single reason why some people are homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual” but that “according to the American Psychological Association, sexual orientation results from an interaction of cognitive, environmental and biological factors,” and that “sexual orientation is innate and a complex part of one’s personality.”
The judge was wrong, AB. If "sexual orientation results from an interaction of cognitive, environmental and biological factors" then it is not innate.
Moreover, if the APA said what the MCPS curriculum says it did then it has changed its mind because it now says:
"There is no consensus among scientists
about the exact reasons that an individual
develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or
lesbian orientation. Although much research
has examined the possible genetic, hormonal,
developmental, social, and cultural influences
on sexual orientation, no findings have
emerged that permit scientists to conclude
that sexual orientation is determined by any
particular factor or factors. Many think that
nature and nurture both play complex roles;"
The cause of sexual orientation is elusive. Science doesn't know if "there is no single reason".Science doesn't know if "sexual orientation results from an interaction of cognitive, environmental and biological factors”. Science doesn't know if “sexual orientation is innate".
Science doesn't know if sexual orientation is "a complex part of one’s personality.” For all science knows, sexual orientation may be caused by a single environmental factor and be a very simple part of one's personality. For all they know, a corruption of one's innate sexual orientation may be caused by a virus to induce same-gender attraction. There are many possibilities and science doesn't, at present, provide any answers. Science doesn't know. Science doesn't even have a consensus on a likely suspect.
The APA has now acknowledged that. It's time for the MCPS to do the same. Their endorsement of liberal religious dogma is unconstitutional.
Andrea- not anon
N.M.Anon- the Judge was wrong? And you are right? as they say on the Blogs- BWAHAHAHAHA. you haven't been right yet(except for far right). President Huckabee, President Huckabee.....
Anon, I would like to hear you say what you think the word "innate" means, and what it would be contrasted to. Do you think freckles are innate? Intelligence? Do you think that traits that emerge through interaction with the environment are something other than innate? Or are you one of those people who thinks that innate and immutable are the same word?
Rather than just insisting that sexual orientation is not innate, please be so kind as to tell us what you think the word means, and then explain how sexual orientation fails the test.
JimK
Red Baron, bigots like you have been trying to convert gays for decades upon decades and failing miserably. You will continue to fail because it is innate as the majority of non-religionists agree. Your prejudiced opinion does not remotely begin to equal the opinion of a judge committed to an unbiased drawing of conclusions, and that judge, like most scientists, said its innate.
Unlike TTF, I don't make up definitions to fit my preconceived notions. It doesn't matter what I think it means. The dictionary defines "innate" this way:
"existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth"
What do you "think" it means?
"the Judge was wrong? And you are right? as they say on the Blogs- BWAHAHAHAHA."
Let's see what the eloquent Andrea has to say when the Supreme Court rules in favor of the right to bear arms. Should be an amusing spectacle in hypocrisy.
"Anon, I would like to hear you say what you think the word "innate" means, and what it would be contrasted to."
Let's say it would contrasted to not inborn.
"Do you think freckles are innate? Intelligence?"
Don't know.
"Do you think that traits that emerge through interaction with the environment are something other than innate?"
Really doesn't matter, Jim. Because the point is that the APA is now saying that scientists don't know. A thing. About the causes. They're clueless despite all the studies they've done. In your world that means "innate". For the rest of us, Dr Seuss in not a intellectual mentor.
"Or are you one of those people who thinks that innate and immutable are the same word?"
No, that would be BT Alvin. I do think acquired and preventable would go hand-in-hand.
"Rather than just insisting that sexual orientation is not innate, please be so kind as to tell us what you think the word means, and then explain how sexual orientation fails the test."
I actually didn't say it failed the test. I said that scientists have said that they don't know.
Sorry I couldn't be "so kind".
"Red Baron, bigots like you have been trying to convert gays for decades upon decades and failing miserably. You will continue to fail because it is innate"
Even if it were incurable, which it isn't, that would prove it were innate. AIDS is incurable but not innate. It is acquired. Homosexality may be acquired too.
"as the majority of non-religionists agree."
Could we see your polling data, please?
"Your prejudiced opinion does not remotely begin to equal the opinion of a judge committed to an unbiased drawing of conclusions,"
Actually, I wasn't drawing an opinion. I was simply citing an organization revered by TTFers worldwide (all 14 of you), the APA!!!!
"and that judge, like most scientists, said its innate."
I doubt the judge was a scientist. He relied on a statement from the APA presented to him by the defendants. The APA appears to have changed its mind.
Red Baron, you really should come out of the closet and get some help in accepting yourself - you'll be much happier. No heterosexual person is so obsessed with gayness, clearly you're attempting to repress your own desires by attacking gays. Don't waste your life hating yourself and those like you.
Priya, your frustration with the limited nature of your arguments is beginning to show.
Anon, it's deceptive of you to post the first of three definitions for the word innate. Here's the whole thing:
1 : existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn <innate behavior>
2 : belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent
3 : originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience
The philosophical third definition is not relevant here, the first two definitely are.
No character trait is entirely present at birth, of course, and almost all of them develop in interaction with the environment. Exactly what triggers hetero or homosexuality? There are certainly thousands of factors. There is no question that it is innate, it is just that it is not purely innate, in the way eye color, for instance, is.
I used freckles as an example. Of course freckles are innate, you either have them or you don't, or you have a few or a lot, that is determined at birth. But if you never go into the sun you won't have freckles on your nose. It requires interaction with the environment. Certainly you wouldn't argue that people choose to have freckles! I'm sure you could say that people with an innate tendency to freckle should never go out into the sun!
JimK
But, Jim, scientists are saying they don't know what causes homosexuality. It may be that there is some unrecognized trigger that will cause it regardless of one's inherent nature. And it could also be that, regardless of the materialist mindset, that it takes place in another realm of will, thought and intention. There is no evidence to the contrary.
What you've pushed in the curricilum is nothing more than propaganda to buttress your personal religious beliefs.
Science doesn't know if "there is no single reason".Science doesn't know if "sexual orientation results from an interaction of cognitive, environmental and biological factors”. Science doesn't know if “sexual orientation is innate".
Science doesn't know if sexual orientation is "a complex part of one’s personality.” They just don't.
BTW, freckles and desires are oranges and apples.
"I'm not "bemoaning that the curriculum doesn't reflect your particular beliefs". I'm pointing out that the curriculum is reflecting the viewpoint of liberal religious denominations without factual basis. That's unconstitutional."
Good point anon, since when are Gay Americans “factual” or “constitutional?”
--
Seriously though, by arguing that homosexuality is not innate, you destroy your own argument, I realize you don’t mean to, but you do.
If sexuality is as fluid as you suggest, then under the right conditions, anyone can slip into COMPLETE homosexuality at any time, and then back into COMPLETE heterosexuality at any time. Thereby making the FLUIDITY of sexuality itself, worthy of education.
--
Try it this way, do you feel your own sexuality is fixed, or fluid? Or are you waiting for science to decide for you?
Anonymous,
You really don't know want to know what I think regarding your bizarre semantics about defintions.
But I do know this. Your side lost and what trips me out is the fact that now you say the "judge was wrong."
So everyone is wrong but you. Okay that makes sense.
"So everyone is wrong but you."
Actually, there are now many who agree with my point of view, including, notably, most scientists and even that association of pseudo-scientists, the APA.
We all agree that we don't know. The judge was wrong to allow MCPS to teach kids something as fact which is not supported by scientific evidence.
Pseudo scientists? I thought this entire piece of the thread started because you pointed out something in an APA brochure claiming that it backs your viewpoint.
Now that it seems that your claim is not true, you are suddenly calling the APA pseudo scientists.
Again you are making SOOOO much sense (eyes rolling)
So, AnonFreak-- how are your friends down in Westboro? You guys seem to have EVERYTHING in common.
"Pseudo scientists? I thought this entire piece of the thread started because you pointed out something in an APA brochure claiming that it backs your viewpoint."
APA is who TTF has always cited to justify its claim that science says homosexuality is innate. They have a new brochure which contradicts TTF's position. I brought it up not because I think they're a great organization but because TTF does.
"So, AnonFreak-- how are your friends down in Westboro? You guys seem to have EVERYTHING in common."
Have I ever told you about a couple of gays who changed history? Ernst Rohm and Edmund Heines were two open gays who grew up in the first society in history to embrace exclusive homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle. They lived in the Weimar Republic in Germany in the 1920s. They became friends with Adolph Hitler. Indeed, Rohm lived in prison with Hitler while he wrote his nasty book, "Mein Kampf". Hitler put them in charge of the militant wing of the Nazi party. They supported the Nazis by violently harassing any peaceful organized opposition to the Nazi party. Most historians say the Nazis would never have gained power without them.
What do the Nazis have to do with whether or not you consider your own sexuality to be fluid or fixed?
You always talk as an expert on hypotheticals. Ultimately though, you're really only an irrefutable expert on yourself.
Stand up and be counted for once oh who am I kidding forget it.
AnonFreak--
Why do you hate humanity so much?
Why is it so hard for your to grasp the very fact that we are all God's children and put on this planet to live out the plan which he has set for us? Do you seriously think that you will go to Heaven for hating others? My God, Jesus Christ, would not agree with you.
How do you get through each day knowing that you want to hurt those who are already vulnerable to hate, injustice and violence? You, Mr. AnonFreak, should be ashamed of yourself. Until you learn to love yourself, you'll never learn how to truly love Jesus Christ--- why don't you just work on your own human flaws instead of impeding the lives of others?
On that note... I am off to India to spend 8 days at an Ashram! It's Spring break in MCPS!
Here's the full APA quote, including the part NARTH and Anon omitted:
"What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
The full text of the APA brochure follows.
Since 1975, the American Psychological Association has called on psychologists to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations. The discipline of psychology is concerned with the well-being of people and groups and therefore with threats to that well-being. The prejudice and discrimination that people who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual regularly experience have been shown to have negative psychological effects. This pamphlet is designed to provide accurate information for those who want to better understand sexual orientation and the impact of prejudice and discrimination on those who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual.
What is sexual orientation?
Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one’s own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women). This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world. Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions. In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes). However, some people may use different labels or none at all.
Sexual orientation is distinct from other components of sex and gender, including biological sex (the anatomical, physiological, and genetic characteristics associated with being male or female), gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female),* and social gender role (the cultural norms that define feminine and masculine behavior).
Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment, and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one’s sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people.
How do people know if they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual?
According to current scientific and professional understanding, the core attractions that form the basis for adult sexual orientation typically emerge between middle childhood and early adolescence. These patterns of emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction may arise without any prior sexual experience. People can be celibate and still know their sexual orientation-–be it lesbian, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual.
Different lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have very different experiences regarding their sexual orientation. Some people know that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual for a long time before they actually pursue relationships with other people. Some people engage in sexual activity (with same-sex and/or othersex partners) before assigning a clear label to their sexual orientation. Prejudice and discrimination make it difficult for many people to come to terms with their sexual orientation identities, so claiming a lesbian, gay, or bisexual identity may be a slow process.
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
What role do prejudice and discrimination play in the lives of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people?
Lesbian, gay, and bisexual people in the United States encounter extensive prejudice, discrimination, and violence because of their sexual orientation. Intense prejudice against lesbians, gay men, and bisexual people was widespread throughout much of the 20th century. Public opinion studies over the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s routinely showed that, among large segments of the public, lesbian, gay, and bisexual people were the target of strongly held negative attitudes. More recently, public opinion has increasingly opposed sexual orientation discrimination, but expressions of hostility toward lesbians and gay men remain common in contemporary American society. Prejudice against bisexuals appears to exist at comparable levels. In fact, bisexual individuals may face discrimination from some lesbian and gay people as well as from heterosexual people.
Sexual orientation discrimination takes many forms. Severe antigay prejudice is reflected in the high rate of harassment and violence directed toward lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals in American society. Numerous surveys indicate that verbal harassment and abuse are nearly universal experiences among lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Also, discrimination against lesbian, gay, and bisexual people in employment and housing appears to remain widespread.
The HIV/AIDS pandemic is another area in which prejudice and discrimination against lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have had negative effects. Early in the pandemic, the assumption that HIV/AIDS was a “gay disease” contributed to the delay in addressing the massive social upheaval that AIDS would generate. Gay and bisexual men have been disproportionately affected by this disease. The association of HIV/AIDS with gay and bisexual men and the inaccurate belief that some people held that all gay and bisexual men were infected served to further stigmatize lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.
What is the psychological impact of prejudice and discrimination?
Prejudice and discrimination have social and personal impact. On the social level, prejudice and discrimination against lesbian, gay, and bisexual people are reflected in the everyday stereotypes of members of these groups. These stereotypes persist even though they are not supported by evidence, and they are often used to excuse unequal treatment of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. For example, limitations on job opportunities, parenting, and relationship recognition are often justified by stereotypic assumptions about lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.
On an individual level, such prejudice and discrimination may also have negative consequences, especially if lesbian, gay, and bisexual people attempt to conceal or deny their sexual orientation. Although many lesbians and gay men learn to cope with the social stigma against homosexuality, this pattern of prejudice can have serious negative effects on health and well-being. Individuals and groups may have the impact of stigma reduced or worsened by other characteristics, such as race, ethnicity, religion, or disability. Some lesbian, gay, and bisexual people may face less of a stigma. For others, race, sex, religion, disability, or other characteristics may exacerbate the negative impact of prejudice and discrimination.
The widespread prejudice, discrimination, and violence to which lesbians and gay men are often subjected are significant mental health concerns. Sexual prejudice, sexual orientation discrimination, and antigay violence are major sources of stress for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Although social support is crucial in coping with stress, antigay attitudes and discrimination may make it difficult for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people to find such support.
Is homosexuality a mental disorder?
No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.
What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?
All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.
Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his samesex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to selfdetermination; be sensitive to the client’s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors.
What is “coming out” and why is it important?
The phrase “coming out” is used to refer to several aspects of lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons’ experiences: self-awareness of same-sex attractions; the telling of one or a few people about these attractions; widespread disclosure of same-sex attractions; and identification with the lesbian, gay, and bisexual community. Many people hesitate to come out because of the risks of meeting prejudice and discrimination. Some choose to keep their identity a secret; some choose to come out in limited circumstances; some decide to come out in very public ways.
Coming out is often an important psychological step for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Research has shown that feeling positively about one’s sexual orientation and integrating it into one’s life fosters greater well-being and mental health. This integration often involves disclosing one’s identity to others; it may also entail participating in the gay community. Being able to discuss one’s sexual orientation with others also increases the availability of social support, which is crucial to mental health and psychological well-being. Like heterosexuals, lesbians, gay men, and bisexual people benefit from being able to share their lives with and receive support from family, friends, and acquaintances. Thus, it is not surprising that lesbians and gay men who feel they must conceal their sexual orientation report more frequent mental health concerns than do lesbians and gay men who are more open; they may even have more physical health problems.
What about sexual orientation and coming out during adolescence?
Adolescence is a period when people separate from their parents and families and begin to develop autonomy. Adolescence can be a period of experimentation, and many youths may question their sexual feelings. Becoming aware of sexual feelings is a normal developmental task of adolescence. Sometimes adolescents have same-sex feelings or experiences that cause confusion about their sexual orientation. This confusion appears to decline over time, with different outcomes for different individuals.
Some adolescents desire and engage in samesex behavior but do not identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, sometimes because of the stigma associated with a nonheterosexual orientation. Some adolescents experience continuing feelings of same-sex attraction but do not engage in any sexual activity or may engage in heterosexual behavior for varying lengths of time. Because of the stigma associated with same-sex attractions, many youths experience same-sex attraction for many years before becoming sexually active with partners of the same sex or disclosing their attractions to others.
For some young people, this process of exploring same-sex attractions leads to a lesbian, gay, or bisexual identity. For some, acknowledging this identity can bring an end to confusion. When these young people receive the support of parents and others, they are often able to live satisfying and healthy lives and move through the usual process of adolescent development. The younger a person is when she or he acknowledges a nonheterosexual identity, the fewer internal and external resources she or he is likely to have. Therefore, youths who come out early are particularly in need of support from parents and others.
Young people who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual may be more likely to face certain problems, including being bullied and having negative experiences in school. These experiences are associated with negative outcomes, such as suicidal thoughts, and highrisk activities, such as unprotected sex and alcohol and drug use. On the other hand, many lesbian, gay, and bisexual youths appear to experience no greater level of health or mental health risks. Where problems occur, they are closely associated with experiences of bias and discrimination in their environments. Support from important people in the teen’s life can provide a very helpful counterpart to bias and discrimination.
Support in the family, at school, and in the broader society helps to reduce risk and encourage healthy development. Youth need caring and support, appropriately high expectations, and the encouragement to participate actively with peers. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth who do well despite stress—like all adolescents who do well despite stress—tend to be those who are socially competent, who have good problem-solving skills, who have a sense of autonomy and purpose, and who look forward to the future.
In a related vein, some young people are presumed to be lesbian, gay, or bisexual because they don’t abide by traditional gender roles (i.e., the cultural beliefs about what is appropriate “masculine” and “feminine” appearance and behavior). Whether these youths identify as heterosexual or as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, they encounter prejudice and discrimination based on the presumption that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual. The best support for these young people is school and social climates that do not tolerate discriminatory language and behavior.
At what age should lesbian, gay, or bisexual youths come out?
There is no simple or absolute answer to this question. The risks and benefits of coming out are different for youths in different circumstances. Some young people live in families where support for their sexual orientation is clear and stable; these youths may encounter less risk in coming out, even at a young age. Young people who live in less supportive families may face more risks in coming out. All young people who come out may experience bias, discrimination, or even violence in their schools, social groups, work places, and faith communities. Supportive families, friends, and schools are important buffers against the negative impacts of these experiences.
What is the nature of same-sex relationships?
Research indicates that many lesbians and gay men want and have committed relationships. For example, survey data indicate that between 40% and 60% of gay men and between 45% and 80% of lesbians are currently involved in a romantic relationship. Further, data from the 2000 U.S. Census indicate that of the 5.5 million couples who were living together but not married, about 1 in 9 (594,391) had partners of the same sex. Although the census data are almost certainly an underestimate of the actual number of cohabiting same-sex couples, they indicate that there are 301,026 male samesex households and 293,365 female same-sex households in the United States.
Stereotypes about lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have persisted, even though studies have found them to be misleading. For instance, one stereotype is that the relationships of lesbians and gay men are dysfunctional and unhappy. However, studies have found same-sex and heterosexual couples to be equivalent to each other on measures of relationship satisfaction and commitment.
A second stereotype is that the relationships of lesbians, gay men and bisexual people are unstable. However, despite social hostility toward same-sex relationships, research shows that many lesbians and gay men form durable relationships. For example, survey data indicate that between 18% and 28% of gay couples and between 8% and 21% of lesbian couples have lived together 10 or more years. It is also reasonable to suggest that the stability of same-sex couples might be enhanced if partners from same-sex couples enjoyed the same levels of support and recognition for their relationships as heterosexual couples do, i.e., legal rights and responsibilities associated with marriage.
A third common misconception is that the goals and values of lesbian and gay couples are different from those of heterosexual couples. In fact, research has found that the factors that influence relationship satisfaction, commitment, and stability are remarkably similar for both same-sex cohabiting couples and heterosexual married couples.
Far less research is available on the relationship experiences of people who identify as bisexual. If these individuals are in a same-sex relationship, they are likely to face the same prejudice and discrimination that members of lesbian and gay couples face. If they are in a heterosexual relationship, their experiences may be quite similar to those of people who identify as heterosexual unless they choose to come out as bisexual; in that case, they will likely face some of the same prejudice and discrimination that lesbian and gay individuals encounter.
Can lesbians and gay men be good parents?
Many lesbians and gay men are parents; others wish to be parents. In the 2000 U.S. Census, 33% of female same-sex couple households and 22% of male same-sex couple households reported at least one child under the age of 18 living in the home. Although comparable data are not available, many single lesbians and gay men are also parents, and many same-sex couples are part-time parents to children whose primary residence is elsewhere.
As the social visibility and legal status of lesbian and gay parents have increased, some people have raised concerns about the well-being of children in these families. Most of these questions are based on negative stereotypes about lesbians and gay men. The majority of research on this topic asks whether children raised by lesbian and gay parents are at a disadvantage when compared to children raised by heterosexual parents. The most common questions and answers to them are these:
1. Do children of lesbian and gay parents have more problems with sexual identity than do children of heterosexual parents? For instance, do these children develop problems in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior? The answer from research is clear: sexual and gender identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same way among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents. Few studies are available regarding children of gay fathers.
2. Do children raised by lesbian or gay parents have problems in personal development in areas other than sexual identity? For example, are the children of lesbian or gay parents more vulnerable to mental breakdown, do they have more behavior problems, or are they less psychologically healthy than other children? Again, studies of personality, self-concept, and behavior problems show few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children of heterosexual parents. Few studies are available regarding children of gay fathers.
3. Are children of lesbian and gay parents likely to have problems with social relationships? For example, will they be teased or otherwise mistreated by their peers? Once more, evidence indicates that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal social relationships with their peers and adults. The picture that emerges from this research shows that children of gay and lesbian parents enjoy a social life that is typical of their age group in terms of involvement with peers, parents, family members, and friends.
4. Are these children more likely to be sexually abused by a parent or by a parent’s friends or acquaintances? There is no scientific support for fears about children of lesbian or gay parents being sexually abused by their parents or their parents’ gay, lesbian, or bisexual friends or acquaintances.
In summary, social science has shown that the concerns often raised about children of lesbian and gay parents—concerns that are generally grounded in prejudice against and stereotypes about gay people—are unfounded. Overall, the research indicates that the children of lesbian and gay parents do not differ markedly from the children of heterosexual parents in their development, adjustment, or overall well-being.
What can people do to diminish prejudice and discrimination against lesbian, gay, and bisexual people?
Lesbian, gay, and bisexual people who want to help reduce prejudice and discrimination can be open about their sexual orientation, even as they take necessary precautions to be as safe as possible. They can examine their own belief systems for the presence of antigay stereotypes. They can make use of the lesbian, gay, and bisexual community—as well as supportive heterosexual people—for support.
Heterosexual people who wish to help reduce prejudice and discrimination can examine their own response to antigay stereotypes and prejudice. They can make a point of coming to know lesbian, gay, and bisexual people, and they can work with lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals and communities to combat prejudice and discrimination. Heterosexual individuals are often in a good position to ask other heterosexual people to consider the prejudicial or discriminatory nature of their beliefs and actions. Heterosexual allies can encourage nondiscrimination policies that include sexual orientation. They can work to make coming out safe. When lesbians, gay men, and bisexual people feel free to make public their sexual orientation, heterosexuals are given an opportunity to have personal contact with openly gay people and to perceive them as individuals.
Studies of prejudice, including prejudice against gay people, consistently show that prejudice declines when members of the majority group interact with members of a minority group. In keeping with this general pattern, one of the most powerful influences on heterosexuals’ acceptance of gay people is having personal contact with an openly gay person. Antigay attitudes are far less common among members of the population who have a close friend or family member who is lesbian or gay, especially if the gay person has directly come out to the heterosexual person.
Where can I find more information about homosexuality?
American Psychological Association
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Concerns Office
750 First Street, NE. Washington, DC 20002
E-mail
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/
Mental Health America (formerly the National Mental Health Association)
2000 N. Beauregard Street, 6th Floor
Alexandria, VA 22311
Main Switchboard: (703) 684-7722
Toll-free: (800) 969-6MHA (6642)
TTY: (800) 433-5959
Fax: (703) 684-5968
http://www.nmha.org/go/home
What Does Gay Mean? How to Talk With Kids About Sexual Orientation and Prejudice
An anti-bullying program designed to improve understanding and respect for youth who are gay/lesbian/bisexual/ transgender (GLBT). Centered on an educational booklet called What Does Gay Mean? How to Talk with Kids About Sexual Orientation and Prejudice, the program encourages parents and others to communicate and share values of respect with their children.
American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)
Division of Child and Adolescent Health
141 Northwest Point Blvd.
Elk Grove Village, IL 60007
Office: (847) 228-5005
Fax: (847) 228-5097
http://www.aap.org
Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Teens: Facts for Teens and Their Parents
Suggested Bibliographic Citation:
American Psychological Association. (2008). Answers to your questions: For a better understanding of sexual orientation and homosexuality. Washington, DC: Author. [Retrieved from www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf.]
This material may be reproduced and distributed in whole or in part without permission provided that the reproduced content includes the original bibliographic citation and the following statement is included: Copyright © 2008 American Psychological Association
© 2008 American Psychological Association
750 First Street, NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242
Telephone: 800-374-2721; 202-336-5500. TDD/TTY: 202-336-6123
PsychNET®
Dear Freak AnonFreak---
I am Ivy league educated, actually, Thanks.
I am actually in year three (after already having a Master's) of my five-year Ph.D.
I just don't hate people is all.. as you so obviously do.
Once again: My God, Jesus Christ is a loving, fair God. I don't know if you believe in the same, but I, for one, know this.
Every night I go to sleep with a smile on my face knowing that Jesus loves me... and He loves you too...but does not agree with you.
He still accepts you as one of this children, but he also feels great sorrow for you as you HATE your fellow brothers and sisters.
Why don't you open up your heart to Jesus, AonoFreak??! I have, and it's been nothing less than truly amazing. I'll keep praying for you and hoping that, someday, you'll be a truly happy brother/sister of mine.
God bless,
Derrick
Thanks for the prayers, Derrick. I must say though, they seem a little disingenuous when you consider the name-calling you do. How do you reconcile this in your mind?
Also, Derrick, saying that science hasn't determined if homosexuality is innate, that isn't "hateful". When you say it is, really, you're being an extremist. Facts are facts. The scientists don't know whether or not gaeity is innate.
"In a turn of events only possible in the world of politics, former presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said he’s sympathetic to the pressure presidential hopeful Barack Obama is under, given the controversial videos circulating of Obama’s pastor Jeremiah Wright.
On MSNBC’s Morning Joe program, the Arkansas Republican said many times it’s the Left that sling the race arrows and it’s been interesting to watch them deal with the issue.
As a pastor, he also speaks from experience.
“Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Reverend Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment,” he said. “There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you’d say ‘Well, I didn’t mean to say it quite like that…’”
Huckabee also grew up in a segregated South and reminded viewers to think about what others must be feeling. “You have to cut people some slack — and I’m gonna be probably the only conservative in America who’s gonna say something like this, but I’m just telling you — we’ve gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names.”"
Can you guys call up McCain and ask that Huckabee be placed on the ticket?
What about calling yourself names, AnonFreak? Don't you call yourself "Anonymous"?
What about your group down in Wesboro calling all gays "fags" ?
Don't try to reconcile yourself until you can do it without being a hypocrite.
Derrick, on this blog, I don't think I've called anyone a name unless they did so to me first. Even then, it's only been in extreme and repetitive cases where all hope of civility seems lost. The problem is that most of you are extremists and find my very opinion offensive, regardless of my manner or approach.
This tiny obnoxious group down in "Wesboro" has nothing to do with me and vice versa. I don't endorse their tactics and have no idea what their opinions are. I wouldn't have even heard about them if I didn't read this blog. You almost wonder if they are paid stooges of some gay advocacy group providing a convenient caricature to attack.
How can you seriously comment on name-calling when you persist in hiding behind being anonymous?
Yes, I can. It deters civil discourse.
This blog allows anonymous commenting. You should either change that or stop complaining about it.
If it's any enticement, I will stop commenting if the blog's policy is changed.
You can write anonymously if you like, but you can't then say that you never resorted to name-calling because you're a different Anon and expect people to believe you.
But this is nothing new. Your only friend with the guts to sign her name is Theresa.
Oh, I see. I could have been anon calling names before and who would know? You've got a point, Dr. And, actually, I have. I still think, though, that I've done it on a reactionary basis but, admittedly, that is a broad and subjective claim.
Let's all make a pact to be nice!
Have a good weekend.
I can agree with that.
Dr, just for a cultural experience, you should go check out a Good Friday service tonight. They're usually pretty dramatic.
Then go home and watch some March Madness. There was a great upset a little while ago. A little known San Diego team beat mighty Connecticut, perennial powerhouse, in OT. One of the players on the winning team is the grandson of the cult leader from the 70s, Jim Jones. You gotta feel sorry for the guy. Fans of the opposing team usually come to the game with signs that say "Go have some Kool-Aid!"
That's really cruel, isn't it?
I did attend Good Friday services in Israel a few decades ago, and very much appreciated the experience.
Maryanne of this blog has been invited to attend Easter services with a pastor up in the Gaithersburg area. He had us in for a 90 minute discussion several months ago, and now would like to continue the conversation. Quite honorable.
Cool. I'd ask you what church but I doubt you'd tell me.
Did you catch last week's Time magazine? The cover had a story on ten big ideas that are changing the world. Number ten was that Jesus is Jewish.
We'll see what kind of an impact it has. That it hasn't been widely known for 2000 years says a lot in and of itself, though I doubt it would have done much to stem the rise and exploitation of anti-Semitism in nominally Christian countries.
And, no, I wouldn't tell you which church, because the pastor prefers to keep this in his family for the time being. Given all the fear-mongering out there in some other churches, I don't blame him. But it's a hopeful sign.
Anonymous said: “I'd ask you what church but I doubt you'd tell me.”
I’d be glad to tell you Anon… I’m a Pantycostal! ;)
Peace,
Cynthia
"We'll see what kind of an impact it has. That it hasn't been widely known for 2000 years says a lot in and of itself, though I doubt it would have done much to stem the rise and exploitation of anti-Semitism in nominally Christian countries."
Dana, anti-semitism existed long before Jesus and has nothing to do with him. Do you seriously believe if a Jew in 1940 Poland had coverted to Christianity, the Nazis would have said "Oh, OK, no problem."? Of course not. The persecution was not religious, it was racial.
"And, no, I wouldn't tell you which church, because the pastor prefers to keep this in his family for the time being. Given all the fear-mongering out there in some other churches, I don't blame him. But it's a hopeful sign."
I completely understand. They are many stories I could have told over the years that would have enlightened the discussion but couldn't because it would be unfair to the individuals involved given the vicious fanaticism of some commenters here.
Wow, you really are conflating issues."Anti-Semitism" before Christianity (not before Jesus) did not exist; it was a creation of the Church. Nabateans hated Jews and Jews hated Greeks who hated Romans who hated Persians . . . It was an ethnic thing, a national thing, a tribal thing.
Anti-Semitism is, by definition hatred of Jews because they are Jews for religious reasons. The Christians started it, and others have picked it up. It was Christians who perfected mass murder, though we don't need to get back into that argument.
Yes, the Nazis took religious anti-Semitism to the next level and made it racial, and they couldn't have cared less if a Jew had converted or not, or had non-Jewish parents or grandparents. But the Nazis were still Christians, and the long history of hatred laid the groundwork for extermination.
Btw, much of the killing in Eastern Europe was performed by Poles and Ukrainians, people who had no racial beliefs (they were Slavic trash to the Nazis) but killed the Jews because "the Jews killed Christ." That was the canard used in New York in the first half of the 20th century by good Irish and Italian Catholics, as well as by any number of members of various Protestant denominations.
Things are much better now, but they have improved with increased education and exposure of people to one another. All the more reason for you to get out and meet some gay and trans people.
"Wow, you really are conflating issues."Anti-Semitism" before Christianity (not before Jesus) did not exist; it was a creation of the Church. Nabateans hated Jews and Jews hated Greeks who hated Romans who hated Persians . . . It was an ethnic thing, a national thing, a tribal thing.
Anti-Semitism is, by definition hatred of Jews because they are Jews for religious reasons. The Christians started it, and others have picked it up. It was Christians who perfected mass murder, though we don't need to get back into that argument."
Talk about conflating, Dana. There are many definitions of anti-semitism and many more common uses of it. So you think no negative attitudes toward Jews before Christ qualify because you are defining anti-semitism as religious differences between non-Messianic Jews and Christians. That's a focus of your preference.
Forget captivity and slavery in Egypt and Bablyon. Forget the murder of Hebrew children by the Pharoah. Forget, I guess, this quote from Cicero, several years before Christ was born:
"Thou knowest how numerous this tribe is, how united and how powerful in the assemblies. I will plead in a low voice so that only the judges may hear, for instigators are not lacking to stir up the crowd against me, and against all the best citizens. To scorn, in the interest of the Republic, this multitude of Jews so often turbulent in the assemblies shows a singular strength of mind."
Sounds like a quote from Adolph himself, doesn't it?
It wasn't a religious issue in those days -- the early Christian Church made it one.
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