David Fishback on NewsChannel 8: Transcript

A couple of weeks ago, you might remember, we were talking HERE about the bizarre story on Channel Seven News, Greta Kreuz talking about whether gay people can change, and telling about a new book saying they can. The Channel 7 story made it sound like there's a real controversy, that maybe gay people can become straight. That channel, and particularly that reporter, has been especially willing to promote certain unsupported viewpoints regarding sexual orientation.

After my first complaint, David Fishback wrote a guest post HERE where he went into the matter in more detail. He has more patience than I do, and he rebutted the various statements that were made in the news show. Subsequently he was invited to appear on NewsChannel 8's show called News Talk, with Bruce DePuyt. A guy from Exodus International was also invited, he participated over the phone. Exodus is an organization that promotes the idea that homosexual people can and should learn to be heterosexual. The ten-minute segment aired on Wednesday, May 7th. Channels 7 and 8 are owned by the same company. For some reason, you watch them on Comcast channels 27 and 28, I don't know why you'd want to be called "Channel X" but people watch you on channel Y.

DePuyt introduced the segment by nothing that earlier in the week the American Psychiatric Association had canceled a planned panel at their convention in Washington, D.C., that would have discussed issues surrounding sexual orientation (discussed on this blog HERE). Here is the transcript of the interview from there:

Bruce DePuyt (BD): Organizers say they pulled the plug when one of their participants backed out. Others say it was pressure from gay activists. In a moment, we’ll talk about whether gays and lesbians are born with same sex attractions and whether someone can be, quote, cured of homosexuality.

But first, our Greta Kreuz. [The earlier news report that had been aired on News Channel 8’s sister station, WJLA, can be seen HERE.]

Bruce DePuyt (BD): Joining us now live in the studio is David Fishback of the Metro DC Chapter of PFLAG -- Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, Good to see you again. With us by phone is Randy Thomas of Exodus International. Thank you for your time today.

Randy Thomas (RT): Thank you.

BD: Your reaction, Mr. Thomas, to the cancellation of the conference.

RT: Well, you know, the APA’s decision conveys that they would rather shut us up than to reach out. Any time you allow one party to dictate the terms of dialogue, you abandon equality. Where does this decision leave people of faith? It leaves us out in the cold. We do have a valid testimony , we do have valid viewpoints that should be considered.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you agree that , in general, you know, that people will have differences? But at least at a conference, at least people are talking. Maybe past each other, but they are talking. Do you regret that the conference was cancelled?

David Fishback (DF): Well, the problem, I think, is in terms of who the representative of the ex-gay group was. Professor Throckmorton has taken many positions over the years that have been absolutely at odds with the positions of every single mainstream American medical and mental health association including that of the American Medical Association, which has concluded that these conversion therapies are dangerous and should not be engaged in. So when you’re talking about….

BD: But what does he advocate?

DF: I know a number of years ago, when I was looking at this very closely for the Montgomery County Public Schools, his view was that, well, as long as somebody has an explanation as to why they are gay – frankly, whether it’s correct or not – that gives them some comfort that there is somebody to blame. Well, that approach is fundamentally destructive of families The medical community, the scientific community has concluded that sexual orientation is not a choice, Simply because the science has not been able to pin down the precise etiology of what causes sexual orientation does not mean that the scientific community is incorrect when they say that, one, it’s not a choice, and, two, it’s not something that’s caused, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has said, it’s not something caused by abnormal parenting or abusive relationships. And that’s the key thing here.

I suspect, but I don’t know, what the APA may have been concerned about was whether Dr. Throckmorton now accepts the science and his viewpoint is, “Well , that if people have theological viewpoints, they have to find ways to live happy lives being celibate,” that would be a legitimate discussion. But if the question is, well, can people really change, all the scientific evidence is that people can’t and it is cruel to tell people they can.

BD: Mr. Thomas, are you at all sympathetic to the view that much of the rhetoric we hear. Now you’re telling an entire class of people that they are essentially invalid?..

RT: Well, what I’m here to say is that 16 years ago I decided not to identify as a gay man and to seek change and I was met with answers that I was [unintelligible] to my life. And Exodus has had a 70% growth rate in five years The demand for our viewpoint is out there and people are wanting something other than the politically correct doctrine that most of these organizations are espousing. Because the truth is that change happens incrementally. For some people it doesn’t happen. For other people it does. For me, it has. And so the APA to completely ignore that reality that there is incremental change for people of faith is to ignore the reality that this issue is a lot broader, a lot more complicated than what the activists are presenting.

BD: Mr. Thomas, let me ask you this: And let’s see if we can get both of you to find any middle ground at all. Is it possible, Mr. Thomas, that some people with same sex attractions would like not to have it and so that this therapy is the way to go and living a heterosexual life is the preferred way, but that some gays and lesbians are very happy as they are and there shouldn’t be a suggestion that all gays need curing

RT: Well, we never suggested that all gays need to be cured. That’s not one of our talking points. That’s our opponent’s talking point. We respect the right to self-determination and that is what the APA is supposed to be about: That people can look at arguments from both sides, they can look at the testimonies of people who identify as gay and have long term relationships and they can look at my testimony and the testimony of thousands of others like me . And they can make the decision for themselves. I would completely agree that no one should feel shame or condemnation for their same sex attraction. I speak out against that as much as I do about how change is possible. That’s my way of grace. I do not agree that there is only one option for people with same sex attractions.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you think that gays need to be more tolerant of folks who’ve adopted the path of Mr. Thomas and others.

DF: I think people should always be sympathetic to people who hold strong theological viewpoints that impact how they would like to live their lives. But what Mr. Thomas ignores is the fact that the American Medical Association, not some interest group, the American Medical Association has explicitly condemned conversion therapies that are based on the proposition that people should or ought to change their sexual orientation. Why….

RT: And they are yet another professional organization that has been taken over by gay activists.

DF: So the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association -- basically, what Mr. Thomas is saying is that all the respected medical groups in this country have been taken over by some kind of cabal without any basis in science, without any basis in fact. And that the only people who are right are the people with a particular theological agenda. I may wish to be……

RT: That’s not the truth. The APA is ignoring people like myself and they need to quit it.

DF: I may wish to be six feet tall, but nothing I can do can make me six feet tall.

BD: David Fishback, Randy Thomas, thank you very much for your time. Unfortunately, we will have to leave the debate there for now We thank both of you for coming in.

I've talked about this before, but the point is an important one. Thomas says "We respect the right to self-determination," and that sounds wonderful -- but there is no right to self-determination for some things. You don't pick your race, your facial features, your birthday, your eye-color, your sexual orientation, your parents. The idea that you have some kind of right to self-determine your biological characteristics is just crazy. But the sentence appears to give no grounds for argument. Everybody respects the right to self-determination for things that we can self-determine -- education, profession, choice of friends, things that we really do have a choice in, this is what we Americans call "freedom." But self-determination does not apply to sexual orientation and that is the whole point. If there was self-determination of sexual orientation, then there would not be any reason to talk about this, the scientists would agree with the religious guys and that would be that. But the fact is, the argument simply doesn't apply, and the statement is nonsense. And groups like Exodus International believe their nonsense should be considered as an equal counterweight to the considered consensus of physicians, researchers, and scientists.