Wednesday, August 06, 2008

That Deadline Business

After the recent ruling by Judge Greenberg, you saw news stories that a judge had "cleared the way" for a referendum on the new gender-identity nondiscrimination bill in Montgomery County, that he had "approved" the referendum, and so forth. The case is under appeal, so the way is not cleared quite yet, but it may be interesting for readers to see what the judge actually said.

The Board of Elections screwed up. They told the Citizens for a Responsible Whatever that they needed 25,001 signatures to get the referendum on the ballot, but they based that on the number of "active" voters, not the number of "registered" voters as required by law. In fact they needed 27,615 valid signatures, which they did not have.

The judge ruled that the CRW had not collected enough signatures to meet the requirement of five percent of registered voters. On that basis, the referendum should have been thrown out. But -- isn't there always a but? -- he also ruled that the plaintiffs filed their complaint too late. And this is where the appeal will come in.

The law says you have ten days to file a complaint on something like this. There are lots of good reasons for having a deadline, that makes sense. But the law does not say when the ten days start ticking down. So the question of the day is, when does the timer start?

Here's how the judge looked at it. Note, I am transcribing this from a smudgy and messy PDF document, and probably got some letters wrong. This is the section from the Memorandum Decision and Declaratory Judgment Order issued by Judge Robert A. Greenberg of the Montgomery County Circuit Court that discusses the deadline issue.
V. Statute of Limitations

The final question remaining for the court's determination is whether the statute of limitations contained in §6-210 bars the relief sought by Plaintiffs. Limitations was pled by Defendant in its answer as an affirmative defense, and raised in its response to the supplemental memorandum filed by Plaintiffs on the issue of the correct denominator.

Statutes of limitations exist to encourage promptness. "They find their justification in necessity and convenience rather than logic. They represent expedience, rather than principles ... They represent a public policy about the privilege to litigate." Walko v. Burger Chef Systems, Inc., 281 d. 207, 210, 378, A.3d 1100, 1101 (1977).

Such statutes are to be strictly construed and the court is not to give them "a strained construction to evade their effect [citation omitted]." Decker v. Fink, 47 Md. App. 202, 206, 422 A.2d 389, 391 (1980).

In a pre-election context, time is of the essence. The General Assembly made a legislative determination in enacting §6-210 that those aggrieved by a decision of the local board must promptly lodge an objection by requesting judicial review.

Defendant claims that any challenge to the denominator should have been raised within ten days of the determination by the Defendant that the referendum petitioner (MCRG) needed 25,001 signatures to place the matter on the ballot.

Plaintiffs aver that any 10-day limitations requirement is triggered by the date that Defendant certified the petition, see MD. CODE ANN., ELEC. §6-208 (2003), and point to the letter sent by the local board to the county executive, dated March 3, 2008. By that calculation, say Plaintiffs, their judicial challenge was timely filed.

The court notes that information regarding the number of active and inactive voters in Montgomery County was available throughout the time period at issue, on the State Board of Elections website, for any interested citizen to view. The Plaintiffs, and members of MCRG, had unfettered access to these numbers. All of those citizens are presumed to know the law regarding the "active-inactive" dichotomy, with the Court of Appeals eliminated in Green Party.

After the decision in that case, it is inescapable that five percent of the registered voters in Montgomery County on November 21, 2007, was not 25,001. Plainly, MCRG did not gather enough signatures to meet the five percent threshold.

Plaintiffs, however, judicially challenged the denominator too late. As was the case in §[unclear], above, a judicial challenge to the fixing of the denominator should have been filed on or before February 20, 2008, and perhaps earlier. Certainly, Plaintiffs had constructive notice of the denominator no later than that day, when the first set of signatures was verified and counted by the Defendant.

The court rejects Plaintiff's suggestion made at the July 9 hearing that the date the petition was certified to the county executive is the measuring date for seeking judicial review. Certification under §6-208 occurs at the end of the signature-gathering process. While it is true that §6-209 provides for judicial review of the certification, it does not give Plaintiffs a second bite at the apple on the denominator issue.

Roskelly mandates that where referendum petitioners are aggrieved by a rejection of signatures at the first step of the signature-gathering process, they are required to seek judicial review within 10 days of the determination. Had the denominator in this case been artificially high, Roskelly would have compelled MCRG to seek judicial review within 10 days, lest they be bound by the higher number. It would not have been permissible to allow MCRG to wait until the certification process to seek such review.

Plaintiffs are not entitled to a more deferential standard than the petition sponsors. Because their request for judicial review was filed on March 14, limitations bars any remedy.

I know some lawyers read this blog, and I hope they'll jump in and clear some of this up in the comments. Here's what I think he's saying. You have ten days to complain. In the case of the first set of signatures, you had ten days from the day they were verified (February 20th) to complain that they were invalid for some reason. Then, when the last set of signatures is submitted, the Board of Elections looks at them all and declares at some point that they are "verified," and then you have ten days to challenge that. Unfortunately, the Board only tells the people who submitted the petitions, they don't announce it in any public way, so if you want to challenge the signatures you have no real way of knowing when the Board verified them or when the ten days run out. There is a specific moment when the Board sends a letter to the County Executive, telling him that the signatures are verified, and as I understand it, that was considered the start of the ten-day countdown for the general challenge to the signatures, which is why the complaint was considered at all. The letter was sent March 6th, the complaint was filed March 14th.

But here's where it gets tricky. There are two things. First, the plaintiffs didn't realize at first that the Board had calculated the number wrong, and they didn't include that in their original complaint. On that account, Judge Greenberg ruled that this was just a new "theory" and could be added later to the list of complaints about the signatures. Second, and this is critical, the judge seems to have opined that since the number was wrong as soon as the Board said it, you had ten days from then to challenge it. As he says here, anybody could look on the web and see that they'd used the wrong numbers.

First of all, a little contradiction. The overall complaint regarding the second batch of signatures was submitted before the deadline. The "denominator" issue, regarding the required number of signatures, was considered to be part of the general complaint. But Judge Greenberg expressed the opinion that that part of the complaint should have a different due-date from the rest of the items. Does that seem a little fishy to you? It can be included, but it won't count because it was included too late. What sense does that make?

I don't know when the Board said the target was 25,001, and have not heard any date proposed for when that was. The judge's words are strange here: ... a judicial challenge to the fixing of the denominator should have been filed on or before February 20, 2008, and perhaps earlier. First of all, what is the word "perhaps" doing in there? He is saying he doesn't know when it should have been filed! He just knows it should have been "on or before February 20, 2008, and perhaps earlier."

So if February 20th was the deadline, you count back and ask, what happened on February 10th? If you have ten days, and the ten days run out on the 20th, then I guess they started on the 10th. So what happened on February 10th that was so special? I don't know. Nobody knows. It was right before the primary elections, the shower-nuts were still trying to get signatures -- there does not appear to be any reason for the judge to select February 20th as the deadline, and his "perhaps" wording does make you think he's pulling it out of ... thin air. It's like it just seemed to him that February 20th was a good-sounding date.

Looking back at the blog, I see mention as far back as December 1st that the CRW need 25,000 signatures. It's a number that was always there, my guess is that they went to the Board of Elections in November and asked, what do we have to do to get a referendum on the ballot, and the Board said, you need 25,001 signatures. The CRW took them at their word, and I have already admitted, I almost sympathize with them on this one, because they trusted their government officials and those officials were just plain wrong. The CRW trusted the government, and our side, the anti-discrimination side, also trusted them, so nobody thought to go back and check their numbers. As far as sympathy goes, though, it is good that the judge noted that the CRW could have found the correct numbers on the Internet, too -- in that sense it is their own fault they didn't have enough signatures, they believed the Board of Elections' arithmetic instead of doing the math themselves.

There is an interesting comment right at the end of the judge's opinion, which has to do with using "a more deferential standard" for plaintiffs than defendants. Okay, so let's imagine the CRW goes to the Board of Elections and says how many signatures do we need? Say the Board says you need a quarter of a million signatures, and the CRW says, but that's too many, and the Board says, that's our determination and that's that. In that case, the CRW would want to go to court right then, to get a ruling that five percent of the registered voters is not a quarter million people. Now the judge is saying, if the CRG would've had to sue right off the bat if the number was too high, the other side should have to, too, when the number is too low. Think it through, that's a little too "fair and balanced" for my tastes.

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking the obvious here. Everybody agrees the CRW did not submit as many signatures as the law requires. The Board of Elections made a mistake, a judge has confirmed that the number was wrong -- so why does it matter that a deadline was missed? The law says that to have a referendum you have to have five percent of the registered voters, and they didn't. Why does it take a group of citizens suing to set that straight? It seems to me that the responsibility of the Board of Elections at this point should be to say, woops, we made a mistake, and reverse their determination that enough signatures had been submitted. You don't need a lawsuit to do that. They should take responsibility for this -- as it is, they are knowingly allowing the law to be broken, they know the threshold was not met and yet they are going to let this referendum go to the voters. They should be responsible for enforcing the law, not just seeing that the lawbreaking is orderly.

It has now been determined that there were not enough signatures, but somebody has to file an appeal and pay for lawyers to argue about when a deadline was, in order for the law to be followed.

The legal process is plodding along as it should. An appeals court is considering whether to hear the case. If they do, things should move swiftly -- we don't have all year, there are ballots to print up! Even though it seems crazy, the legal question is identifying the date by which the plaintiffs had to have filed something challenging the number of signatures needed. You can see, there are a lot of ways to look at it.

34 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The law says that to have a referendum you have to have five percent of the registered voters, and they didn't. Why does it take a group of citizens suing to set that straight? It seems to me that the responsibility of the Board of Elections at this point should be to say, woops, we made a mistake, and reverse their determination that enough signatures had been submitted.

That's exactly right. The BOE made an error when it gave the wrong number representing 5% of County registered voters to the shower nuts. The judge's decisions has now compounded the BOE's error instead of remedying it. Most of Montgomery County's 52,000+ inactive registered voters -- those who did not sign the petition -- have been disenfranchised and the few inactive voters who did sign have been given an unfair advantage over those who did not. This is absolutely wrong because it gives "a more deferential standard" to inactive registered voters who signed the petition than it gives to inactive registered who did not sign. All voters are to be treated with the same deferential standard.

The shower nuts failed to turn in valid petition signatures of 5% of Montgomery County's registered voters so their petition drive should be denied.

August 06, 2008 2:16 PM  
Blogger David S. Fishback said...

It sounds to me that Equality Maryland would not have had standing to appeal on the date Judge Greenberg posits because, as to anyone objecting to the attempt to put the issue to referendum, there was not yet a "case and controversy." In other words, EQMD would have been appealing an interlocutory decision of theBoard of Elections, and interlocutory orders generally may not be appealed. One may generally not appeal a decision until the decision is final and they find out that they are in fact aggrieved. If CRG has not made even the 25,000 threshold, then EQMD would never have been aggrieved. Unless I am missing something legally here, EQMD would not have had standing to appeal at all until the Board of Elections certified the matter for referendum.

August 07, 2008 6:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have some point, David. The whole law here is a unnavigable maze.

In that situation, however, the courts should simply try to apply the intent of the law.

The law's purpose is that there be a safeguard in cases where it appears the Council has not acted in accordance with the wishes of its constituents. Essentially, it allows a vote to determine the validity of the law. If it turns out the county voters agree with the Council, not much is lost, other than a few months.

The benefit of the doubt should go to the referendum.

August 07, 2008 9:45 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

Anonymous said...

“David. The whole law here is a unnavigable maze.

The benefit of the doubt should go to the referendum.”


Agreed. If the referendum effort had been an honest one, and despite my personal feelings of antipathy toward the current situation...

It's unfortunate. There is so much that we could actually agree on. It doesn't take much to understand just HOW DIFFICULT it might be to just even try to understand transgenderism.

It’s HORRENDOUSLY unimaginable.

That, however, is not the crime. The crime is in resisting the impulse to understand further.

EVEN IF to only believe, and understand further, that GLBT *thoughts* and *perceptions* are just mental disorders.

If this is the conclusion you've come to, after meeting with and getting to know gay persons and couples, THEN SAY SO!

And again, yes, if you do say so, and express that we’re all just gay because we’re screwed up in the head, then yes, you will catch hell for it. But you’ll catch much less of it than you're currently catching while trying to hide it.

If you feel as strongly as you do, then at least give us the respect of insulting us to our (computer-monitor, proverbial) faces.

August 07, 2008 1:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It’s HORRENDOUSLY unimaginable."

Transgenderism is no more horrendously unimaginable than a host of other problems that people grapple with and deal with on a daily basis. To the gambler who is ruining his life because he just can't seem to stop-- that's horrendously unimaginable. To the drug user who can't stop using drugs -- that's horrendously unimaginable.

Why is transgenderism being added to the County's anti-discrimination code, while all of these other problems aren't? What makes this uniquely special? Why are their problems any better or worse than anyone else's?

August 07, 2008 2:22 PM  
Blogger Emproph said...

"Transgenderism is no more horrendously unimaginable than a host of other problems"

I apologize, I should have clarified: The concept of transgenderism, WHEN TAKEN SERIOUSLY, is understandably unimaginable.

I forgot, we’re beneath you.

August 07, 2008 2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I should have clarified...I should have said "gender identity." "Transgenderism" is not even mentioned in Bill 23-07.

People suffer daily with horrendous problems. Just pick up a newspaper. If the County Council wanted to protect people with Gender Identity Disorder, then they could have done so. Instead, they made this ridiculously broad definition of "gender identity" that is as insultingly offensive to the intellect as can be. And yes, that definition (aka insult) is, indeed, beneath the citizens of Montgomery County.

August 07, 2008 2:56 PM  
Blogger Emproph said...

“I should have clarified...I should have said "gender identity." "Transgenderism" is not even mentioned in Bill 23-07.”

No shit. But you’ll do anything to avoid addressing the actual subject, won't you?

You have no FUCKING idea how much God loves you, yet you have the temerity to attempt talk down to me?

HOW DARE YOU!

It’s NOT fair.

But don’t worry, this time I haven’t forgotten, none of what I just said will be taken seriously by you.

August 07, 2008 3:48 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Instead, they made this ridiculously broad definition of "gender identity"

Take your ridiculous spin elsewhere Anon. No they didn't. The County Council wisely used a definition that is the same or similar to the 100+ other jurisdictions that also include "gender identity" in their non-discrimination statutes. In fact, I explained that on this blog only two weeks ago. You should try to keep up.

I suggest you pay attention this time.

As I reported last month:

More insults and nonsense, Anon. Typical.

Let's see some language from anti-discrimination laws from other jurisdictions that doesn't include the same or similar language to Bill 23-07, which states:

Gender identity means an individual's actual or perceived gender, including a person's gender-related appearance, expression, image, identity, or behavior, whether or not those gender-related characteristics differ from the characteristics customarily associated with the person's assigned sex at birth.

New York's language is very
similar.

"Gender" is defined in the City's Human Rights Law to include:
• actual or perceived sex;
• gender identity;
• self-image;
• appearance; and,
• behavior or expression,
whether or not that gender identity, selfimage, appearance, behavior or expression is different from that traditionally associated with the legal sex assigned to an individual at birth.

So is San Francisco's

"DEFINITION OF GENDER IDENTITY
Chapters 12A, 12B, and 12C of the San Francisco Administrative Code and Article 33 of the San Francisco Police Code define "Gender Identity" as "a person's various individual attributes as they are understood to be masculine and/or feminine." * Gender Identity therefore includes discrimination based upon an individual's self-asserted gender identity and/or gender expression whether or not different from that traditionally associated with the person's actual or perceived sex as assigned at birth."

And Rhode Island:

The term "gender identity or expression" includes a person's actual or perceived gender, as well as a person's gender identity, gender-related self image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression; whether or not that gender identity, gender-related self image, gender-related appearance, or gender-related expression is different from that traditionally associated with the person's sex at birth.

OK, so let's see you back up your bogus claim that the language of 23-07 is supposedly different from the language used in the other hundred jurisdictions that include gender identity in their anti-discrimination laws.

By the way, if a person commits a crime, it doesn't matter what clothing they're wearing, they still committed a crime. Bill 23-07 doesn't change that so if somebody changes their clothes to commit a crime, it won't help them any.

As Americans, we are all free to dress as we please. Why? Because:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


It takes almost ZERO imagination to figure out how Bill 23-07 could be used by molesters and other criminals.


How do you imagine it being used? You should compare what you imagine with what has actually happened in all the jurisdictions with similar anti-discrimination laws already on the books. The reality is that ZERO crimes have been committed by people using this law to take advantage.

July 27, 2008 11:24 PM

August 07, 2008 4:06 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Emproph, I understand your feelings, and I'm going to leave this comment, but could you tone down the language a little bit, please?

JimK

August 07, 2008 4:07 PM  
Blogger Emproph said...

“Emproph, I understand your feelings, and I'm going to leave this comment, but could you tone down the language a little bit, please?”

Yes. I’m sorry, and thank you.

August 07, 2008 4:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"OK, so let's see you back up your bogus claim that the language of 23-07 is supposedly different from the language used in the other hundred jurisdictions that include gender identity in their anti-discrimination laws."

I have never said, or alluded, that the definition of "gender identity" is different from that of other jurisdictions. Those other jurisdictions should NOT have used that language either. (Like the old saying...would you jump off a cliff just because others are doing so?).

The citizens of Montgomery County can not do anything about the definition used in those other jurisdictions, but they can do something about their own jurisdiction.

You ask: "How do you imagine it being used?" {for criminal behavior}

As I've said before, it takes zero imagination to imagine how predators can take advantage of Bill 23-07. Everyone here keeps asking for specific examples of how this could happen, but the reason you haven't gotten a response is that no one wants to detail a creepy criminal scene. Suffice it to say that, as of now, a woman can complain if she sees a man in the locker room. After Bill 23-07, a man, who happens to be a predator, can sit in the locker room all day long and look innocent. Women will come and go, know they can't complain, and so he doesn't get any attention. In the meantime, he's scoping out who's always alone, the habits of various women...he's peeping without looking like he's peeping -- until one day he follows a woman out into the parking lot and attacks her.

Of course, this shows up in the police logs, and no one connects it with a gender identity bill.

Which brings me the point where you claim that there have been no crimes related to this type of legislation. The point here to note is that no one is tracking these types of crimes. This does not mean that they don't exist. Crimes are reported not because the police call the press every time something happens. They are reported because newspapers send reporters to look at police logs. If the reporter thinks something looks interesting, he reports on it.

If you can tell me which agency in each jurisdiction is tracking these crimes, and show me that they are doing so diligently, then I'll believe you. I'd be the first person who would LOVE to see that these jurisdictions are watching these types of crimes closely. If you can't give me that information, then I won't believe it.

Which brings up the good point that, if this legislation is passed, then the citizens of Montgomery County need to track these types of crimes very closely.

August 07, 2008 5:33 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Everyone here keeps asking for specific examples of how this could happen...

No, Anon, nobody has asked for that. Any of us can imagine terrible things happening with almost any household item or any situation. So you can "imagine" a predator taking advantage of this law, so what? Where they have these laws, in fact predators do not take advantage of them. There is nothing intelligent about imagining things moving in the shadows. The "taking advantage" that you imagine is so far-fetched and bizarre that it would never occur to a real sexual predator. He's going to dress like a woman so he can go in the ladies room? Why doesn't he do that now? There's no law against it.

You seem to believe that the reason there aren't news stories about the numbers of men in dresses lurking in ladies room is that nobody's keeping track of these crimes -- the fact is, it would make an excellent sensationalistic news story if it happened, and any newspaper would love to carry it. It isn't in the news because it doesn't happen.

JimK

August 07, 2008 5:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"No, Anon, nobody has asked for that."

Jim -- You're wrong. Aunt Bea re-quoted a quote of mine the other day about the fact that it requires almost no imagination to figure out how Bill 23-07 could be used by criminals. I wrote that statement in response to someone who wanted to know how the bill could be used for criminal purposes.

Today, Aunt Bea took that "zero imagination" quote and then said:

"How do you imagine it being used? You should compare what you imagine with what has actually happened in all the jurisdictions with similar anti-discrimination laws already on the books. The reality is that ZERO crimes have been committed by people using this law to take advantage."

I've seen that question many times on your website.

Also, you think it's a far-fetched crime scenario that I outlined, but I don't see where it's far-fetched.

And about the statistics...it looks like both of our arguments are based upon theory. I haven't seen anything convincing on either side regarding good, hard statistics -- which is actually why I don't understand why the "zero crime" statistic is even used by those who are in favor of Bill 23-07. For you to state with such positivity that nothing bad ever happens with regard to gender identity legislation is not an opinion backed up by any facts. As for me...I believe that we just don't have good data. If I saw some good data, I'd be very impressed!

August 07, 2008 6:27 PM  
Blogger Emproph said...

“It takes almost ZERO imagination to figure out how Bill 23-07 could be used by molesters and other criminals.”

So basically, the essence of your argument is that if the ‘naïve’ citizens of Montgomery County vote to ensure that some of their residents can’t get fired for NO REASON AT ALL, then all child killing monsters within miles, will somehow, suddenly, be struck with the notion, nay, the compulsion to buy evening gowns, matching pumps, hoes, makeup, and wigs -- for the first time -- in order to seamlessly blend into any given ladies bathroom and/or locker-room, for the purpose of committing crimes?


ZERO imagination?

August 07, 2008 6:41 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Anon, I'm not talking about statistics. The kind of thing you imagine is so rare that it would not make sense to compile statistics on it. Any event of that sort would be a headline-grabbing news story. It just doesn't happen -- you will not find any instance where passing a transgender-rights law led to any sexual predator lurking in any ladies room, and those laws exist in a great number of communities.

Grown-ups learn to distinguish between reality and fantasy. Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean it's going to happen.

JimK

August 07, 2008 7:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Emphroph -- Yes, zero imagination. I listed one way just because it was the least offensive to write about. Also, why do you think that giving men access to ladies' rooms is so far fetched as an avenue of crime? Many child molesters purposefully get jobs as babysitters or school teachers or camp counselors simply so that they can be near children. And getting and holding a job is a big commitment. Donning women's clothing to be near children in a women's shower is quite easy compared with getting and holding down a job. (Besides, the kicker to the way Bill 23-07 is written -- they don't even have to put on dresses.)

And Jim -- I agree with you on one point -- that grown ups DO learn to distinguish between reality and fantasy. That concept is at the crux of the entire "gender identity" matter.

August 07, 2008 7:45 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

Anonymous continues to equate all queer people with sexual predators.

Have we not all heard this many times before about people who are different?

Bigotry is so repetitive.

rrjr

August 07, 2008 8:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous continues to equate all queer people with sexual predators."

I'm not understanding you, Robert. I didn't say one thing about gay people? They weren't even on my mind as I was writing this.

August 07, 2008 8:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robert -- It's me again. My sister was reading the blog, and she's confused, too, about why you all of a sudden, out of the blue, brought up gay people. She wanted me to let you know that not all transgenders are gay. Are you aware of this? In fact, she said that she'd be totally comfortable having a gay man in the women's restroom, rather than a straight man (that I was talking about) who's in the women's restroom pretending he's something he's not.

I have to assume that you were just rushing through the reading of this exchange and made an honest mistake. I understand -- I've done the same thing before.

August 07, 2008 8:34 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

Ah, Anonymous somehow claims that not insulting gay people makes equating trans people less horrific (cf Queer

It's interesting to me that we all (at least I for myself) can not help interacting with the troll who hides under our electronic bridge.

I wish I knew how to quit you.

August 07, 2008 9:23 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

An error on my part. That should read "equating trans people with sexual criminals less horrific."

We all make mistakes.

Again, heres a discussion of the meaning of the word Queer . Try to keep up.

rrjr

August 07, 2008 9:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

all

just FYI

you have a new anon

I, anon-deluxe, am just sitting back and enjoying the conversation

new-anon seems pretty capable so I don't feel obligated to add anything

I'll be on a road trip most of the rest of August so I may not be contributing much

August 07, 2008 9:57 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

It's striking that the most really egregious bigots on this blog all use the same name. Perhaps parents who don't raise their children with human sensibility are unable to think of separate names for each one. Kind of like clones.

rrjr

August 07, 2008 10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robert -- That's interesting. I had no idea that "queer" included "gender identity." Thanks for the correction.

However, I was not equating transgenders with predators. I have said, repeatedly, that the definition of gender identity is so broad that any predator can use it to gain access to bathrooms. That predator could be a transgender, a gay person, a heterosexual person -- ANYONE. That is a FAR CRY from saying that transgenders are predators.

(That being said, I don't know of ANY group that is immune from having its share of criminals and predators. If you read only this blog, you would think that being a transgender makes it impossible for you to also be a criminal.)

The majority of women understand the fear that comes from being uncertain about who is lurking in their bathroom or shower. It is the stuff that nightmares and reality are made of.

For the people here to be so callous about very real fears and concerns on the part of women and their safety concerns is truly disheartening and borders on the disgusting.

The perception that women feel -- that they are not safe under Bill 23-07 -- cannot and should not be ignored. As an analogy...businesses put safety lights up around buildings because people perceive that they could be in danger in the darkness. When we feel that our safety could be threatened, we don't need the County Council telling us "well, we've decided to outlaw all of the safety lights on buildings because we can't find any proof that you'll be attacked." Please, County Council --just give us our lights, even if YOU think we're perceiving our threat to be more than it is. If the majority feel that they could be threatened, then the County Council's job is to help us not feel threatened. Their job is not to sacrifice safety for the majority. Their job is to find real, workable solutions. Bill 23-07, with its ridiculous definition of "gender identity" is NOT that solution (but I can think of some real ones).

This bill makes most women, and those that care about them, feel unsafe. Who knows --- maybe transsexual women don't feel this threat because they possess the average strength and height of a man that an average woman does not possess. I consider them to be lucky. If Bill 23-07 is passed, I would certainly wish to possess their physical power the next time I walk into a bathroom late at night, or am showering at a health club late at night.

August 08, 2008 12:00 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

fear that comes from being uncertain about who is lurking in their bathroom or shower.

Oh brother. Thanks for laying out your fear-ladened thoughts so clearly.

I don't know who these fearful women are but none of the women I associate with here are worried one bit. In fact, from my decades of experience using public restrooms here in the county, I'd say most women's biggest fear in them is that someone will hear them passing gas. Most of them flush to cover their sounds.

I'm a woman and a resident Montgomery County and ending discrimination on the basis of gender discrimination does not scare me at all. In fact, it makes me proud to live here.

August 08, 2008 7:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You have some point, David. The whole law here is a unnavigable maze.

In that situation, however, the courts should simply try to apply the intent of the law.

The law's purpose is that there be a safeguard in cases where it appears the Council has not acted in accordance with the wishes of its constituents. Essentially, it allows a vote to determine the validity of the law. If it turns out the county voters agree with the Council, not much is lost, other than a few months.

The benefit of the doubt should go to the referendum.

**************************
The problem with Anon's "intent" argument is that it misconstrues the purpose of a referendum. In our republican form of government, we operate on the rebuttable presumption that our elected legislators represent the will of the people. The referendum process is a means for rebutting the presumption, but the standards for putting the people through a referendum are quite strict -- otherwise, we would descend into a plebiscitory democracy of which most people (particularly conservatives) are quite skeptical. The legislative presumption is, and ought to be, a strong one. If each legislative decision could easily be put to referendum, then effective governance would be paralyzed.

David S. Fishback

August 08, 2008 8:06 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

The definition of gender identity is the same as that used all over the country and all over the world, for that matter. It is workable, and has been workable. This is a medical condition and there have been no untoward incidents as a result.

Your fear-mongering on this issue is no different than this administration's fear-mongering about Saddam and now Iran. We're afraid, so let's invade or bomb them. What, we're not afraid enough yet? Let's broadcast mushroom clouds, forge documents, con spies, etc.

I have never had any problem relieving anyone's fears when they've been willing to talk. That you know anyone who is fearful is not indicative of any reality but your own, and the fact that they are not willing to talk.

But, As Theresa pointed out, this is not about bathrooms. She doesn't want to even think about it. So she should think about something else. Problem solved.

August 08, 2008 8:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The referendum process is a means for rebutting the presumption, but the standards for putting the people through a referendum are quite strict"

A referendum is not that onerous a circumstance that we should use a term like "putting the people through" to describe it. I really don't think anyone minds who doesn't fear that the bill will be rejected by the voters.

If you want the rules to be strict, the need to be designed in a precise way- unlike the current law. Also, strict rules could be the BOE decision is final. Or the deadline is exactly what the law says it is.

And you don't agree with either of those.

The motivation of your argument is partisan, David.

"-- otherwise, we would descend into a plebiscitory democracy of which most people (particularly conservatives) are quite skeptical."

Actually, most people aren't. It is probably too cumbersome for every legislative event but people don't generally have any philosophical problem with it.

"The legislative presumption is, and ought to be, a strong one."

The people should continually monitor the government's action. They deserve no presumption.

"If each legislative decision could easily be put to referendum, then effective governance would be paralyzed."

Nonsense. The laws approved by the people would be enforced. Emergency situations would recognized by all.

August 08, 2008 9:10 AM  
Anonymous Robert said...

In ancient Athens, if the 'demos' wanted to (and it seems they did, on a regular basis), they could prescribe exile for any political leader whom they judged to be putting the city's freedoms at risk by acquiring too much power. They did this by gathering to vote, and inscribing the person's name on an 'ostrake (hence 'ostracism').'

Can anyone imagine someone in current American political life of whom the American people would like to rid themselves?

Anyone at all?

rrjr

August 08, 2008 12:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"That you know anyone who is fearful is not indicative of any reality but your own, and the fact that they are not willing to talk."

Oh, believe me --- women are willing to talk AND TALK AND TALK AND TALK about this issue! In fact, they're willing to do more than talk. They're willing to sign petitions and VOTE. And so are their husbands and boyfriends and sons.

And Aunt Bea -- You don't perceive Bill 23-07 as a threat. That's a good thing for you.

August 08, 2008 12:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They're even willing to fill out entire pages of petitions all by themselves!

August 08, 2008 11:16 PM  
Blogger Emproph said...

"(Besides, the kicker to the way Bill 23-07 is written -- they don't even have to put on dresses.)

Also, why do you think that giving men access to ladies' rooms is so far fetched as an avenue of crime?"


Because in their minds, they are ENIRELY WOMEN. Whether you believe this or not, this is a point that you have yet to acknowledge.

“men” who consider themselves to be “women,” are not attracted to women. Yet this is what you continue to imply.

What you’re suggesting is that if you called the cops on a lecherous guy, who totally looks like a guy, that they would side on the sake of the non-discrimination law.

Is this really what your fear?

In addition, you’ve made it clear before that the bathroom issue is JUST THE BEGINNING! And that you would also be against protections against job protection, transportation services, and such things as cable service. This is where the dishonesty part comes into play for me, you say one thing is your concern, when really, there are a whole host of other things you are against as well -- BUT YOU DON’T SAY SO!

My request is that you at least be HONEST about it. Don't dance around the subject as though you're somehow concerned about bathroom predators when in reality, your main concern is with what you consider to be the legitimization of 'gender confusion.'

As I've said, misunderstanding is perfectly possible to understand, just don't dance around it and pretend that it's something that it's not!

It's NOT fair.

August 09, 2008 4:36 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

The people should continually monitor the government's action. They deserve no presumption.

That's right, Anon, I agree with you! The people should continually monitor their government's action, investigate its questionable actions, and there should be no "presumption."

That's why when one branch of the people's government investigates another for possible wrongdoing, those being investigated should cooperate with the probe, not stonewall, whether the probe is about the politicization of the Department of Justice, or the gutting of scientific reports by political appointees, or the awarding of no-bid contracts to campaign contributors, or the lies and forgeries that lead us into Iraquagmire, etc. etc. etc.

So for example, let's say the President tells his Press Secretary to say, "If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration," about blowing the cover of an active undercover CIA intelligence officer. Then let's say, the President doesn't follow through but instead pardons the only person convicted for his involvement in that crime, IMHO that President deserves no "presumption" and his actions should be thoroughly investigated. If he's found to have committed high crimes and misdemeanors, well, you know the rest.

August 09, 2008 8:19 AM  

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