We Want To Watch This
Down in Fairfax they've had a problem where one of the Family Blah Blah groups has been trying to give the school district anti-gay books, expecting them to use them in the classroom. Here it is in The Post a couple of weeks ago:
These guys never quit, do they?
This week, David Fishback had a letter to the editor published in The Post:
Last night the Montgomery County School District's Citizens Advisory Committee on Family Life and Human Development met. This is the group that reviews materials for health classes in our county, and David Fishback used to chair it. This committee became a sort of battleground when the district proposed a curriculum that taught about sexual orientation, and conservative committee members rebelled, insisting that anti-gay materials should be included.
If you've found this web site, I assume you know something about how that played out. If you don't, start reading the archives on the right-hand side of your screen. The outcome was that there was a legal settlement, and two anti-gay groups -- Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum (CRC) and Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays (PFOX-GAG) -- had members placed on the citizens advisory committee.
Peter Sprigg is the PFOX-GAG representative on the committee and is also the Vice President for Policy at the Family Research Council, which is a group formed, as far as I can tell, to think up ugly things to say about gay people and whisper them in the ears of Washington insiders.
Last night's meeting of the committee, which I am a member of as representative of TeachTheFacts.org, was a pleasant enough affair, with the introduction of new members and explanation by school administrators of the curriculum development process and the place of supplementary materials in the classroom. It was our first meeting of the new school year. Everybody wanted to get out on time to see the debate on TV, and no voting items were on the agenda.
There was a moment where Sprigg asked a question of the school officials that hopefully sent a chill up their spine. MCPS is experiencing a budget freeze, as the county budget is very tight this year, and as a consequence it may be difficult to get new materials to review for classroom use -- things such as videos, posters, the stuff you see in a classroom. Peter Sprigg had a question: what would happen if somebody donated some materials to the school district? The reply was that those materials would be evaluated by MCPS staff just like any others.
I'm not saying that the Family Blah Blah groups are going to pick another fight over this. I'm just saying we might want to keep an eye on the situation.
During a week that librarians nationwide are highlighting banned books, conservative Christian students and parents showcased their own collection outside a Fairfax County high school yesterday -- a collection they say was banned by the librarians themselves.
More than 40 students, many wearing black T-shirts stamped with the words "Closing Books Shuts Out Ideas," said they tried to donate more than 100 books about homosexuality to more than a dozen high school libraries in the past year. The initiative, organized by Colorado Springs-based Focus on the Family, was intended to add a conservative Christian perspective to shelves that the students said are stocked with "pro-gay" books.
Most of the books were turned down after school librarians said they did not meet school system standards. Titles include "Marriage on Trial: The Case Against Same-Sex Marriage and Parenting" and "Someone I Love Is Gay," which argues that homosexuality is not "a hopeless condition." Banned Books, Chapter 2: Conservative Group Urges Libraries to Accept Collection
These guys never quit, do they?
This week, David Fishback had a letter to the editor published in The Post:
The Fairfax Public Schools libraries acted wisely in declining to accept donations of anti-gay books from Focus on the Family ["Banned Books, Chapter 2," Metro, Oct. 3].
For many years, Focus on the Family and similar groups have pushed the notion that homosexuality is a disorder that can be "cured" through what have been called reparative or conversion "therapies." The Post reported that library officials said the books did not meet the school system's standards, which include "two positive reviews from professionally recognized journals." This is not surprising, since all mainstream American medical and mental health professional associations have concluded that homosexuality is not a disorder and that conversion therapies can cause great damage to those exposed to them.
It would be irresponsible for school libraries to accept books offering false medical and mental health information.
DAVID S. FISHBACK
Board Member, Metro DC Chapter Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays
Washington Turning Down False Information
Last night the Montgomery County School District's Citizens Advisory Committee on Family Life and Human Development met. This is the group that reviews materials for health classes in our county, and David Fishback used to chair it. This committee became a sort of battleground when the district proposed a curriculum that taught about sexual orientation, and conservative committee members rebelled, insisting that anti-gay materials should be included.
If you've found this web site, I assume you know something about how that played out. If you don't, start reading the archives on the right-hand side of your screen. The outcome was that there was a legal settlement, and two anti-gay groups -- Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum (CRC) and Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays (PFOX-GAG) -- had members placed on the citizens advisory committee.
Peter Sprigg is the PFOX-GAG representative on the committee and is also the Vice President for Policy at the Family Research Council, which is a group formed, as far as I can tell, to think up ugly things to say about gay people and whisper them in the ears of Washington insiders.
Last night's meeting of the committee, which I am a member of as representative of TeachTheFacts.org, was a pleasant enough affair, with the introduction of new members and explanation by school administrators of the curriculum development process and the place of supplementary materials in the classroom. It was our first meeting of the new school year. Everybody wanted to get out on time to see the debate on TV, and no voting items were on the agenda.
There was a moment where Sprigg asked a question of the school officials that hopefully sent a chill up their spine. MCPS is experiencing a budget freeze, as the county budget is very tight this year, and as a consequence it may be difficult to get new materials to review for classroom use -- things such as videos, posters, the stuff you see in a classroom. Peter Sprigg had a question: what would happen if somebody donated some materials to the school district? The reply was that those materials would be evaluated by MCPS staff just like any others.
I'm not saying that the Family Blah Blah groups are going to pick another fight over this. I'm just saying we might want to keep an eye on the situation.
posted by JimK at 7:16 AM
54 Comments:
Now, books in a school library have to have two positive reviews from professionally recognized journals to be included?
I'm sure this standard is only adhered to when it comes to protecting the gay agenda. More inportant, the question of same sex marriage and parenting is not a scientific one but a question of values. These books should be included so students will be informed about all perspectives in the social issues of our times.
BTW, the first new poll of the day posted on realclearpolitics.com shows Obama's lead as 5 points, which is also the average of the the six polls released yesterday and today.
Despite the fact that the media has been declaring Obama the inevitable victor for the last three weeks, the American people are refusing push the race out of McCain's reach. Obama's lead margin have decreased significantly over the past week.
Second poll of the day posted on realclearpolitics.com.
Ramussen, which showed a 5 point lead for Obama yesterday, has dropped to a 4 point lead.
Anonymous is a goofball. When PFLAG donated books to the FCPS libraries, the schools scrupulously enforced their policies. PFLAG just went to the trouble of donating legitimate books which met the standards. FOF, it seems intentionally, chose books which did not meet those standards, then claimed religious discrimination.
FCPS is notorious for having thorough policies which are scrupulously applied. In a county of a million people, including places such as McLean and Vienna, they are always conscious of the potential lawsuit.
There was a group called PABBIS (see www.pabbis.org) which tried to hijack the FCPS library policies to have books (including lgbt-positive books) removed from school libraries. While that was going on, Regina and I wrote a series of letters to the local paper (that was when she called me a hypocrite). My suggestion was that they donate christian-themed books with a positive message to the library (I can think of several, such as The Hiding Place, Sound of Music, Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe) that didn't put anyone down. Apparently FOF has taken me up on that, but with the twist that their donated books have to be pejorative of lgbt people (and yes, it is my assertion that "ex-gay" materials are intrinsically pejorative--at least all the ones I've seen are).
Thanks to David for the letter to the Post.
rrjr
Robert
We can't banish the idea that homosexuality is wrong from any public discourse. Argue against it if you will but to not let kids know that some believe that and why is to make the kids ignorant.
btw, the GW/Battleground poll which had Obama leading by 13 a few days ago and dropped it to 8 yesterday, has now dropped his lead to 6.
McCain's picking up ground, despite media efforts to call the race over.
It's a good question: can we banish discussion of whether homosexuality is wrong from school libraries, and even if we can, should we?
In fact, FCPS school libraries includde books that discuss whether homosexuality is wrong or acceptable, whether you think they should or not include those books. I probably could find some of those titles.
In my opinion, discussion of whether gays should be allowed to marry is a proper topic for inclusion in school library collections. There is much division about this subject, and it is a current topic of political and social debate.
In contrast, I doubt there are books in the collection that argue in favor of Jim Crow laws and school segregation, simply because such arguments are based on the notion that non-white people are somehow lesser than white people.
In the same way, from my point of view, a discussion of whether or not "homosexuality is wrong", whatever that means, is essenktially a discussion based on the premise that sexual minorities are lesser than straight people. The medical and educational establishment (all of it) disagrees, and so do I. I think schools should declare the subject closed. I don't know whether FCPS has made such a declaration, or would even dare to, but I encourage them do so, and have made that encouragement for many years.
I know you disagree with me, even to the point of posting comments here that are explicitly and intentionally insulting. Such is your right as an American. Private schools may, if they choose, support your point of view. I think, and I think strongly, that public schools should not endorse your point of view. The subject should be closed.
There will always be people such as yourself who disagree with me on this (though, in fact, I postulate that you will eventually your mind in your lifetime). A right to free speech, much to Regina's disappointment, does not guarantee that public school libraries need to endorse all points of view; public school libraries are not venues of free speech. I think, in fact, that children should not be exposed to your ideas on this subject; it's not good for anyone. You, of course, can think of ideas to which you think students should not be exposed, and I leave you free to do that.
BTW, it is much to the point that FOF could not find books which had received recommendations from reputable journals of children's literature for their ex-gay books. Professionals in the field do not consider their viewpoint legitimate.
rrjr
You know, if you remove the one obvious outlier poll, Hotline, which places Obama's lead at 8, the other polls that include information from the 14th and 15th average to a 4 point lead for Obama.
McCain's really doing very well.
Very well.
What's the third derivative of that change? Ahead is still ahead.
rrjr
You're right about that, Robert, but the point is that this election is not close to being over and the media is expending a lot of energy trying to convince America that it is.
Bad anonymous said "the question of same sex marriage and parenting is not a scientific one but a question of values.".
No, it is a scientific question and science has proven that same sex parents do just as well as opposite sex parents and that marriage is a net benefit for same sex couples and society.
Bad anonymous said "These books should be included so students will be informed about all perspectives in the social issues of our times.".
These books should no more be included than should be included books by white supremacists that teach that blacks and Jews are inferior. Not all perspectives on social issues are valid perspectives and anti-gay bigots perspectives are no more valid than white supremacist perspectives.
Jim: You said: "I'm not saying that the Family Blah Blah groups are going to pick another fight over this."
Of course they will...they have no other purpose for their existence except to make life miserable for other people. It will be just another of their losing battles...but, hey, why not? How else can they keep their name and "notoriety" out there so that they can feel better about themselves? I have to go back and read my Dante so that I can see what level of Hell they will be consigned to.
Diogenes
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/10/15/2008-10-15_feisty_john_mccain_works_hard_cant_score-1.html
It was John McCain's last big chance to tame the massive headwinds buffeting his fading campaign. He gave it his Navy blue-and-gold all, but a feisty showing couldn't reverse a national psyche weary of the Republican brand.
Barack Obama came into the Hofstra debate handily ahead. Nothing Wednesday night altered that stark reality for McCain and his dispirited partisans.
This race will likely tighten in the next 19 days. But Obama enjoys not just the lead but the easier path: more promising electoral math and the luxury of an unabating economic typhoon that reinforces Democrats' historical advantage on pocketbook issues.
"This is a closed jury now," a Republican veteran of many presidential campaigns said, wistfully. "The country has rendered its verdict on McCain."
Throughout the fall and again Wednesday night, McCain has lifted heavily from Hillary Clinton's failed playbook. She repeatedly attacked Obama's judgment, character and experience.
The strategy misfired badly. It hasn't worked any better for him.
That's why McCain is trailing, playing defense in states he should have salted away long ago, and hoping for a seismic event to entice a second look from voters.
"It goes against my nature to say this," one of the Republican Party's most respected mandarins glumly conceded, "but this election is slipping away."
McCain's really doing very well.
He's losing very well and has been consistently since late September. He's closed offices in Michigan, Wisconsin and Maine and is having to spend time and resources trying to hang onto Virginia, Indiana, Colorado, and other former GOP states. The Senate and House will pick up Democratic seats riding Obama's coattails.
Last night John McCain said:
"Just again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's 'health for the mother.' You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything. That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, 'health.'"
— Sen. John McCain, during presidential debate
Since when did women's health become extreme?
What's really extreme here is that John McCain doesn't understand that women's health matters.
"Since when did women's health become extreme?"
Pro-murder feminists groups use the word "health" loosely and will say that if a woman has any anxiety about having a child, then her mental health is affected. The end result is that every abortion can be justified as a health issue.
You may remember when Preya protested loudly a few weeks back when I said most pro-choice people in America believe abortion is wrong.
Obama said the same thing last night. He said "Look," (and, btw, 95% of his sentences start out with this word) "no one is pro-abortion."
Isn't it funny how Preya and CBTS aren't pasting in a bunch of poll results today?
I thought it was funny.
Oh that's funny, AH. When some of us post polls you say we're worried and when we don't post them, you think it's funny. I can't speak for Priya, but she (and GA too) sounds about as confident as I am that there is going to be a major realignment of political power in the USA come November.
But since you're in a joking mood, here's a good one for you.
McShame's designated "winner of the debate" last night, Joe the Plumber, owes back taxes.
`Joe the Plumber,' Who Dislikes Obama Tax Plan, Owes Back Taxes
By Ryan J. Donmoyer
Oct. 16 (Bloomberg) -- ``Joe the plumber,'' the Toledo, Ohio, man whose complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan were featured in the final presidential debate, owes the state of Ohio almost $1,200 in back income taxes.
According to records on file with the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, the state filed a tax lien against Samuel J. Wurzelbacher for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active.
Wurzelbacher was thrust into the national spotlight this week when he told Obama he worried that the Illinois senator's proposals to roll back Bush administration tax breaks for Americans earning more than $250,000 would prevent him from buying a plumbing business that would earn between $250,000 and $280,000 a year.
Republican John McCain, the Arizona senator, pointed to the exchange during the debate last night when he turned to the camera and said, ``I will not stand for a tax increase on small- business income.'' Directly criticizing Obama, he added, ``what you want to do to `Joe the plumber' and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.''
Today, at a rally in Downingtown, Pennsylvania, McCain said that ``the real winner last night was `Joe the plumber.'''
Wurzelbacher's home telephone number is unlisted, and efforts to reach him by calling his neighbors and family were unsuccessful. Attempts to reach Wurzelbacher at the plumbing company where he works were also unsuccessful. The address on the lien and other records for him matched the address published by the Toledo Blade, which also noted the lien.
A Lien
The state of Ohio places a lien on real property after several steps to try to collect a tax debt, according to John Kohlstrand, a spokesman for the Ohio Department of Taxation who said he couldn't discuss any specific case.
If a delinquency notice goes unheeded, the Department of Taxation issues a billing notice, Kohlstrand said. If that is ignored, a more formal assessment notice is sent. Failing to appeal an assessment or losing an appeal puts the debt into the hands of the state attorney general for collection. The attorney general typically sends a collection notice and simultaneously files a lien.
``The taxpayers may not necessarily know about the lien,'' Kohlstrand said, although they would receive other notices.
In Wurzelbacher's case, the lien indicated that the notice was sent to a previous address in Toledo.
Under Obama's proposal, Wurzelbacher would face about $900 more in taxes if he netted $280,000 of income from his new business, said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the Tax Foundation, a Washington research group that is examining both candidates' plans. ``His average tax burden, the final bill he pays to the IRS isn't going to go up much if he's just making $280,000 a year,'' Prante said. He would face higher marginal tax costs to expand the business beyond that, he said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Ryan J. Donmoyer in Washington at rdonmoyer@bloomberg.net
So, Joe doesn't like Obama's tax plan but apparently doesn't like Bush's tax plan either. Sounds like Joe just doesn't like to pay taxes period.
We are on the brink of economic disaster, a major depression and we had all better dig deep, each and every one of us, especially those with the most means, to pay off this debt eight years of Bush and the GOP have saddled us with.
Obama is the change we need.
WASHINGTON (Oct. 16) - The FBI is investigating whether the community activist group ACORN helped foster voter registration fraud around the nation before the presidential election. A senior law enforcement official confirmed the investigation to The Associated Press on Thursday.
A second senior law enforcement official says the FBI was looking at results of recent raids on ACORN offices in several states for any evidence of a coordinated national scam.
Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Justice Department regulations forbid discussing ongoing investigations particularly so close to an election.
ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, says it has registered 1.3 million young people, minorities and poor and working-class voters — most of whom tend to be Democrats.
Republican accusations about the group were raised during Wednesday's presidential debate between Democrat Barack Obama and GOP candidate John McCain.
Some ACORN employees have been accused of submitting false voter registration forms — including some signed `Mickey Mouse' or other fictitious characters.
Those voter registration cards have become the focus of fraud investigations in Nevada, Connecticut, Missouri and at least five other states.
Election officials in Ohio and North Carolina also recently questioned the group's voter forms.
"We are on the brink of economic disaster, a major depression and we had all better dig deep, each and every one of us, especially those with the most means, to pay off this debt eight years of Bush and the GOP have saddled us with.
Obama is the change we need."
Yes, we may be in the first real recession in over a quarter century. This unprecedented period of growth has spread throughout the world. This period of prosperity was the work of the Republicans.
Now, because Democrats and ACORN bullied banks into taking high risk loans, we're supposed to embrace socialism?
Meanwhile the last president who raised taxes and tried to block fair trade during a recession was named Herbert Hoover. The result was the Great Depression.
At least the old LaSalle ran great!
What I meant to say was that I don't like black people.
Fasten your seatbelts, kids!
The prestigious Gallup poll now has Obama leading McCain by two scrawny points.
That's below the margin of error!
October surprise: Osama bin Laden will be caught before Halloween.
SURPRISE!
Preya and CBTS can't be happy!
"What I meant to say was that I don't like black people."
TTF is up to their racist remarks again.
Bad anonymous said "This unprecedented period of growth has spread throughout the world. This period of prosperity was the work of the Republicans.".
The truth is exactly the opposite. The Clinton government was responsible for a 559 billion surplus and presided over the longest period of peacetime economomic expansion in U.S. history. In 8 years Republicans have turned that surplus into a monstrous deficite and brought on the worst economic collapse the U.S. has seen since the depression. Your delusion that Republicans are responsible for the Clinton surplus are proven wrong by the fact that Republicans have chosen to run a massive deficit when they themselves have power. If they had been responsible for the Clinton surplus they would have similarly been responsible for a Bush surplus. There's been no Bush surplus because the Republicans had nothing to do with the Clinton suplus. If it had been up to them Clinton would have run a massive deficit as well.
Bad anonymous said "The prestigious Gallup poll now has Obama leading McCain by two scrawny points.".
Wrong. Gallup has Obama by 6%. The expanded likely voter count takes into account the vast number of additional voters Democrats have registered and the huge gap Democrats have over Republicans in voter enthusiasm. Gallup is on record stating that these factors will translate into a serveral percentage point advantage for Obama.
Funny how now you think Gallup is prestigious but when Gallup had Obama at +11 you were claiming Gallup was a disgrace.
The fact is that Obama has an insurmountable lead over Mccain of 6.8%:
RCP Average 10/09 - 10/15 -- 49.5 42.7 Obama +6.8
Rasmussen Tracking 10/13 - 10/15 3000 LV 50 46 Obama +4
Reuters/C-Span/Zogby Tracking 10/13 - 10/15 1208 LV 49 44 Obama +5
Hotline/FD Tracking 10/13 - 10/15 817 LV 49 41 Obama +8
Gallup Tracking (Traditional)* 10/13 - 10/15 2143 LV 49 47 Obama +2
Gallup Tracking (Expanded)* 10/13 - 10/15 2312 LV 51 45 Obama +6
GW/Battleground Tracking 10/09 - 10/15 800 LV 50 44 Obama +6
IBD/TIPP Tracking 10/09 - 10/14 825 LV 45 42 Obama +3
LA Times/Bloomberg 10/10 - 10/13 1030 LV 50 41 Obama +9
CBS News/NY Times 10/10 - 10/13 699 LV 53 39 Obama +14
USA Today/Gallup (Traditional)* 10/10 - 10/12 761 LV 50 46 Obama +4
USA Today/Gallup (Expanded)* 10/10 - 10/12 1030 LV 52 45 Obama +7
Pew Research 10/09 - 10/12 1191 LV 49 42 Obama +7
Ipsos/McClatchy 10/09 - 10/13 1036 RV 48 39 Obama +9
"The truth is exactly the opposite. The Clinton government was responsible for a 559 billion surplus and presided over the longest period of peacetime economomic expansion in U.S. history. In 8 years Republicans have turned that surplus into a monstrous deficite and brought on the worst economic collapse the U.S. has seen since the depression."
Preya, you are not exactly an economist. The sole indicator of economic health is not the national deficit and it has little to do with the problems we now have.
As a percent of GDP, the deficits during Bush's term have not been uncommonly large.
The U.S. economy began an expansion with the enactment of the Reagan tax policies that lowered marginal rates and that expansion has persisted and absorbed tremendous shocks without abating.
A testament to our success is that since that time every country in the world including Communist giants Russia and China have tried to find a way to unleash the same market forces in their countries.
We have a mess now but it won't last forever. The stock market collapse actually doesn't make sense except that investors are afraid a socialist is about to elected President of the greatest country on Earth. Wall Street is driven by psychology. Right now, they're voting against Obama.
"Funny how now you think Gallup is prestigious but when Gallup had Obama at +11 you were claiming Gallup was a disgrace."
They were always prestigious. I didn't say they were a disgrace. I said they were having a bad day.
Looks like I was right.
Their traditional poll, the one that has brought them such prestige, says Obama is up 2.
"The fact is that Obama has an insurmountable lead over Mccain of 6.8"
Again, the realclearpolitics average poll is at a disadvantage because they give weight to polls almost a week old. This strategy fails when the tide has turned, as it clearly has.
Leaving out the controversial "expanded" poll with the ACORN voters counted in, all the other polls including 10/14 & 10/15 average a 4 point lead for Obama.
btw, has ACORN tried to register you to vote in Minnesota yet?
Bad anonymous said "you are not exactly an economist.".
More of an economist than you. The experts agree as well, the U.S. is in a bad way and its Bush's fault.
Bad anonymous said "The sole indicator of economic health is not the national deficit".
I never said it was.
Bad anonymous said "it has little to do with the problems we now have".
I agree, the problems caused by the deficit have yet to come home to roost but they will. You cannot go spending beyond your means forever and without it eventually having a severe negative effect on the economy.
Bad anonymous said "The stock market collapse actually doesn't make sense except that investors are afraid a socialist is about to elected President of the greatest country on Earth. Wall Street is driven by psychology. Right now, they're voting against Obama.".
Nonsense. The stock market never reacted negatively the whole time Obama was leading in the polls throughout this race. It did react immediately to the collapse of a number of large financial institutions. Those financial institutions would have been in good shape but for the excessive deregulation Republicans brought about in the naive hope that the free market has the answer to everything. Financial institutions were encouraged by the Bush government to believe that housing prices would rise forever and this would balance the less than optimum loans they were making. Turns out the Republicans were wrong and the bubble burst.
Bad anonymous said "Again, the realclearpolitics average poll is at a disadvantage because they give weight to polls almost a week old. This strategy fails when the tide has turned, as it clearly has.".
Wrong, the poll average is based on polls up to 3 days old, not "almost a week". Some fluctuations in the polls is inevitable and Obama's lead will expand again soon enough.
Bad anonymous said"Leaving out the controversial "expanded" poll with the ACORN voters counted in, all the other polls including 10/14 & 10/15 average a 4 point lead for Obama."
As we discussed the expanded LV poll is actually more accurate due to the massive advantage Democrats have in new registrations combined with a huge lead in voter enthusiasm over the Republicans. The traditional LV poll doesn't take these Obama advantages into account and is less accurate for that reason. Based on the past two days and excluding the inaccurate gallup traditional and IBD outlier Obama's lead is close to 6%, a landslide.
"More of an economist than you. The experts agree as well, the U.S. is in a bad way and its Bush's fault."
Well, that's a brilliant analysis. You really proved me wrong. You do know a lot about economics.
Other than Jay Leno and the Dixie Chicks, what other experts do you read? What are they saying?
Most of these experts have been saying the sky is about to fall for a quarter century. Obviously, say that long enough and it'll eventually be true.
Market forces are the key to the country's future. Socialism will fail again if the American people are foolish enough to give Obama a try.
"Bad anonymous said "The sole indicator of economic health is not the national deficit".
I never said it was."
Well, you kept talking about how horrid everything is and the only example you gave was the deficit. Normal people would assume that's what you meant. What DO you think is the most important indicator of economic health?
":I agree the problems caused by the deficit have yet to come home to roost but they will. You cannot go spending beyond your means forever and without it eventually having a severe negative effect on the economy."
Oh, OK. When we get beyond historic levels of debt, get back to us.
"Bad anonymous said "The stock market collapse actually doesn't make sense except that investors are afraid a socialist is about to elected President of the greatest country on Earth. Wall Street is driven by psychology. Right now, they're voting against Obama.".
Nonsense. The stock market never reacted negatively the whole time Obama was leading in the polls throughout this race."
It was a close race until a few weeks ago. Obama briefly pulled into a big lead. Given the imminent election, Wall Street was spooked.
No one likes socialism.
"It did react immediately to the collapse of a number of large financial institutions."
Actually, if you'll remember they didn't.
You should be able to. It wasn't that long ago.
"Those financial institutions would have been in good shape but for the excessive deregulation Republicans brought about in the naive hope that the free market has the answer to everything."
What deregulation are you talking about? Give us an example. Even Bill Clinton says your wrong here.
Of course, he would. He's the one the signed the dergulation bill that ignorant people like you claim caused this problem.
I can understand if you don't want to mention any facts but coud you at least try, try to make sense.
"Financial institutions were encouraged by the Bush government to believe that housing prices would rise forever and this would balance the less than optimum loans they were making. Turns out the Republicans were wrong and the bubble burst."
Actually, the Bush administration tried to head this off several years ago to be thrwarted by Barney Frank, America's head homosexual.
"Bad anonymous said "Again, the realclearpolitics average poll is at a disadvantage because they give weight to polls almost a week old. This strategy fails when the tide has turned, as it clearly has.".
Wrong, the poll average is based on polls up to 3 days old, not "almost a week". Some fluctuations in the polls is inevitable and Obama's lead will expand again soon enough."
See, you can't even read. At the top of today's polls, above the average line, realpolitics clearly states that today's average includes 10/9-15.
"Bad anonymous said"Leaving out the controversial "expanded" poll with the ACORN voters counted in, all the other polls including 10/14 & 10/15 average a 4 point lead for Obama."
As we discussed the expanded LV poll is actually more accurate due to the massive advantage Democrats have in new registrations combined with a huge lead in voter enthusiasm over the Republicans. The traditional LV poll doesn't take these Obama advantages into account and is less accurate for that reason. Based on the past two days and excluding the inaccurate gallup traditional and IBD outlier Obama's lead is close to 6%, a landslide."
This is all unproven, Preya, and probably false. Those who are real people and not ACORN fraudsters are people who never bothered to vote before. Despite their intentions, they're unlikely to do it this time either.
just to let everyone know, canada held an election this week and the conservatives scored a smashing victory over the liberals
up there, liberals are considered to be real dinosaurs
it was the economy, stupid
the conservatives explained how important deregulated market-driven economic forces are to a nation's health
I guess they beat us to the punch!
there's talk that Harper may try again the first thing he did when he took over- try to get gay marriage outlawed
Anonymous, regarding the alleged "only two point lead," if you are going to cite the Drudge Report, please have the decency to say so.
Now about this library situation, I wrote about it on my blog over a week ago:
"I’m usually not one for censorship but I am for standards. And I have a hard time believing that anything put out about the lgbt community by the anti-gay industry or their allies belong in a public library without extreme scrutiny on its credibility.
The anti-gay industry has a track record of relying bad research (Paul Cameron) or distorting legitimate research (i.e. Elizabeth Saewyc, Robert Spitzer, Patrick Letellier, Robert Garafalo, Carol Gilligan, Lisa Waldner, Joanne Hall, Francis Collins, etc. )
And this track record of lies should not be ignored simply because the anti-gay industry was able to find enough guillible students and their parents to try and play a game of semantics.
. . . I wouldn’t mind seeing a full listing of these books they are pushing. We aren’t talking about mere tolerance here; we are talking about the possible codification of lies.
I don’t think a book should be included in a library’s selection simply because a group holds a press conference and sidesteps the issues of accuracy by appealing to emotions and religious beliefs
When choosing books, libraries should always adhere to high standards and the highest of all of these are veracity, or truth."
Alvin, you can go to any library and find beaucoups of books that you say contain lies. The reason these books are an issue is because they contradict the gay agenda.
Part of the gay agenda is an effort to ban all disagreement with its views.
The gay agenda is a totalitarian movement.
Andrea- not anon
I remember when I was running Woodlin's Winter Festival- we had an excellent used book sale. We got especially great books from two parents who worked at the Post since the Post had a strict rule about books they receive for review only being used for donations. I would sort the best new books out and give them to the school librarian -since the money from the used book sale went to the library fund- but sometimes she could not accept them for the library. There were lists and rules of what she could take for the school library. None of the books I gave her were about 2 moms or "reparative therapy" or anything remotely like that.
"Anonymous" Troll: You amaze us...your hyperbole seems to gain in ferocity, bitterness, and just pure pitiousness. ("Part of the gay agenda is an effort to ban all disagreement with its views.
The gay agenda is a totalitarian movement.)
I suspect the only "gay agenda" item that addresses stupidity had you in mind when it was included in the list of thousands upon thousands of objectives it seeks.(sic.)
Your level of interest and obsessiveness with gays suggests that you are an extremely closeted individual. See your friendly neighborhood psychiatrist for a cure for that illness.
Gaysey Daisey
remember that GW/Battleground poll that had Obama up 11 last week?
they recanted earlier in the week and dropped it to 8
then yesterday, it went down to 6
today, it is 4
of the polls released today, Obama's margin is 4, 5, 4
which averages to 4.3
Obama's history
Anonymous,
your claim about the "gay agenda" is a completely pathetic generalization. It's obvious that you cannot and will not say a word about the examples of religious right lies I have listed.
Now you want to change the subject. It's cute how you try to entertain us on this blog.
Alvin, it's fine for us to have a discussion about whether the religious right has told the truth or not.
The problem is that you and Robert and the rest of the movement simply want to outlaw their voice, not argue with it.
Why the jump to extremes? I think you do that on purpose to obscure the issue.
No one is trying to outlaw anyone's voice. These folks are free to buy these books and pass them around to their friends and on their websites.
But I have a problem with them trying to say "such and such is my opinion and therefore this book should be in the library" without the courtesy of some type of reviewing process.
And a group who has a record of lying and distorting statistics; the information they want put out needs to be looked at and scrutinized. And if not found to be truthful, rejected.
But even the new subject isn't much help to Our Evil Friend (OEF).
RCP Average 10/09 - 10/16 -- 49.5 42.7 Obama +6.8
Rasmussen Tracking 10/14 - 10/16 3000 LV 50 46 Obama +4
Reuters/C-Span/Zogby Tracking 10/14 - 10/16 1210 LV 49 44 Obama +5
Hotline/FD Tracking 10/14 - 10/16 804 LV 50 40 Obama +10
GW/Battleground Tracking 10/12 - 10/16 800 LV 49 45 Obama +4
Gallup Tracking (Traditional)* 10/13 - 10/15 2143 LV 49 47 Obama +2
Gallup Tracking (Expanded)* 10/13 - 10/15 2312 LV 51 45 Obama +6
IBD/TIPP Tracking 10/11 - 10/15 825 LV 45 42 Obama +3
LA Times/Bloomberg 10/10 - 10/13 1030 LV 50 41 Obama +9
CBS News/NY Times 10/10 - 10/13 699 LV 53 39 Obama +14
USA Today/Gallup (Traditional)* 10/10 - 10/12 761 LV 50 46 Obama +4
USA Today/Gallup (Expanded)* 10/10 - 10/12 1030 LV 52 45 Obama +7
Pew Research 10/09 - 10/12 1191 LV 49 42 Obama +7
Ipsos/McClatchy 10/09 - 10/13 1036 RV 48 39 Obama +9
Now, of course, having been educated, OEF now knows how to use the word "outlier" in a sentence.
Here's another term that OEF needs to learn: cherrypicking. Go look it up.
So, to make OEF happy, while avoiding the cherrypicking, let's do like they do in gymnastics and figure skating, and throw out the high and low scores from the RCP averages above, and see what happens. We take out the +14 from NYT and the +2 for Gallup Traditional, and the Obama lead goes from 6.6 points to 6.2. Celebration in OEF land!
Let's take it a step further. Let's throw out the THREE highs and the THREE lows, and let's see what happens. The lead remains at 6 points.
And what was it at its highest?
About 8. If you will recall, Mr. OEF, I specifically talked about any candidate, given the relative dearth of truly undecided voters, having a ceiling. After you pick up pretty much everyone, as Obama did for the past two weeks, the only place for his numbers to go is down, because dead-ender trolls like you are incapable of changing your mind, even in the face of things like this and this.
I predicted the narrowing, as did pretty much every polling expert out there.
There have been no, repeat no, fundamental changes in this race. Don't take my word for it, go read Mark Blumenthal, Nate Silver, or pretty much anyone else who knows polling.
Cliched but true: I know pollsters, Mr. OEF, some of them are good friends of mine, and trust me, Mr. OEF, you're no pollster.
But hey, have a nice day.
GA
What I made mention to is a very serious question. For example:
Libraries carry DVDS and videotapes. Should one carry the AFA's "It Not Gay," which the AFA continued to sell unchanged even after the star of it, Michael Johnston, was discovered to still having gay sexual encounters.
Should a library carry Staying the Course: Supporting the Church’s Position on Homosexuality or any of the other works listed here (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,021.htm) which freely cite Paul Cameron, a man who has been censured by many legitimate organizations for bad research methodologies and who believes that gays stuff gerbils up their rectums.
It doesn't how many press conferences there is or how many people have been coached to tug at heart strings, a stand needs to be taken for truth.
THAT is the real issue here.
Obama's history
No he isn't, Obama's in the lead.
I have no problem with any publisher printing anything they want.
Bookstores and libraries have the right to decide what to carry. It helps to have standards which apply to everyone. By those standards the materials from the right don't qualify.
I would imagine that if a library allowed credal material from churches, which I believe they generally don't, there would be no problem with such works that talk about a particular religion's perspective on sexual orientation. The problem lies with the lies used in many of Dobson's materials, for instance, which violate any basic standards of science or research.
FCPS didn't decline to accept the FOF books because of their ex-gay content or affiliation; FCPS declined to accept them because they did not meet the standard of having two legitimate reviews from journals of children's literature.
Anon's babbling about "the gay agenda" is both a red herring, and an example of his looking for any opportunity he can find to be disrespectful of lgbt people.
He feels like he can act in a bigoted fashion here because no one can hold him accountable for what he says. We've become his audience for display of his prejudice.
It's nice to be of service.
"Now, of course, having been educated, OEF now knows how to use the word "outlier" in a sentence.
Here's another term that OEF needs to learn: cherrypicking. Go look it up."
In the last two days, six polls have been released. The margins are 4,5,10,4,2,3. As anyone can see, there is only one that diverges from any other. It DOUBLES the next highest. That is an outlier. If you want to include it, you're "cherry-picking". I say use the five that seem in the reasonable range. It is ridiculous to say someone using five of six of anything is "cherry-picking".
The average of the five:
3.6%
Obama is not doing very well.
Not very well at all.
"Bookstores and libraries have the right to decide what to carry."
Private ones do.
Public ones don't have "rights".
The have obligations to the public.
Yes, and the obligation is to educate, not to deceive or foment hatred.
Meet the standards, and there is no problem.
It's just that you can't meet rational standards.
“I would imagine that if a library allowed credal material from churches, which I believe they generally don't, there would be no problem with such works that talk about a particular religion's perspective on sexual orientation. The problem lies with the lies used in many of Dobson's materials, for instance, which violate any basic standards of science or research.”
@!@!@ Name me one library that does not carry a copy of the Bible? The last time I looked the Bible references that homosexual behavior is a sin. As far as Dobson’s materials, you don’t know what you are talking about. The gay themed books in the library are no more scientific then “Mary Had a Little Lamb” is. The two mommies books are social, not scientific.
Andrea- not anon
I demand that the library remove all cookbooks except vegetarian ones. Based on the Bible, these books are evil and involve cooking unclean animals. I have also asked MCPS to stop selling cheeseburgers and shrimp poppers at lunch - they are leading our innocent children into forbidden ways.
sounds like you're turning away from the TTF line, Andrea
Obama is not doing very well.
Not very well at all.
Uh, it's McCain who is not doing very well at all. McShame/Failin' are down in the polls, all of them. They do not lead in any national polls, but Obama/Biden lead in all of them.
Poll: Voters souring on McCain, Obama stays steady
WASHINGTON -When it comes to the public's image of John McCain, it's as if somebody dialed the electricity down in the past month. For Barack Obama, the juice is still flowing.
People's regard for the Republican presidential nominee has deteriorated across the board since September, an Associated Press-Yahoo News poll showed Friday, with McCain losing ground in how favorably he's seen and in a long list of personal qualities voters seek in White House contenders.
Perceptions of Obama have improved or remained steady. Beyond views of the two rivals' character traits, McCain faces another problem — Obama is more trusted on the economy, the contest's commanding issue, including a 15 percentage-point edge for better grasping how the raging financial crisis is affecting people.
Obama's image has been sturdy even as voters' views of the overall campaign have tumbled since September. The portion of people saying the contest excites them has sunk to 32 percent while those calling it frustrating have grown to 41 percent — and in both cases, six in 10 of those whose feelings have worsened are McCain backers.
Negative campaigning and a month of intense public focus on collapsing global economic and financial markets have not been kind to McCain. The new AP-Yahoo News poll of likely voters, conducted this month by Knowledge Networks, shows more people viewing him favorably than unfavorably by just 5 percentage points, down from a 21-point difference in mid-September.
During the same period, Obama went the other way, increasing a 5 percentage-point net favorable rating to 15 points. Now, Obama is seen favorably by 57 percent and McCain by 52 percent — a close margin that masks the opposite direction the two rivals' ratings are heading.
"He kind of scared me," Leesa Zick, 48, an undecided Republican from Edwardsville, Ill., said of McCain's abrupt and short-lived suspension of his campaign last month during Capitol Hill talks on a financial rescue package. "We need a president who can deal with multiple tasks. It seemed like it overwhelmed him."
For McCain, the poll's good news is that despite a difficult month, his public image is not dramatically worse than Obama's and in several areas remains better. The public still rates him higher than Obama for keeping America safe, working with both political parties and being decisive, experienced and competent.
"He's more qualified than Obama, definitely, because of his experience and history, " said Richard Tosti, 67, a Republican from Rochester, N.Y.
Zick and Tosti are among about 2,000 people the AP-Yahoo News poll has been tracking since November. By repeatedly questioning them, the survey has opened a detailed window on how people have reacted to the campaign's twists and turns.
Less than three weeks from Election Day, Obama has taken a solid lead over McCain in most national and swing-state polls. The AP-Yahoo News survey underscores the morale problem McCain faces.
Obama supporters are more than twice as likely to say they're excited about the race and significantly more likely to say they're interested and hopeful. McCain backers, meanwhile, more often say they feel frustrated and helpless. Underscoring a period that has seen the rival candidates trade personal attacks, about a fifth of those backing each say they're angry.
"There's a lot of mudslinging, which I've never been a fan of," said Eric Juhl, 27, a Republican and McCain backer from Abilene, Kan. "And to me, the media seems pretty left-wing oriented. It's kind of frustrating."
A sour public mood is typical late in presidential campaigns as both sides' attacks accumulate, said University of Wisconsin political scientist and polling authority Charles Franklin. This year's disenchantment is probably magnified by worries about how the candidates would handle the economy, he said.
Even so, Obama has staked out a clear advantage on economic concerns in the AP-Yahoo News poll. The Illinois senator is trusted more than McCain to improve the economy by 54 percent to 44 percent and to handle the financial crisis by 53 percent to 46 percent.
Obama also has a 56 percent to 41 percent advantage for understanding how the financial crisis affects people. Unhappily for McCain, those preferring Obama include six in 10 voters who may still change their minds, about as many independents and even one in 10 McCain backers.
"To me, his background indicates he'd be a little more sensitive to the middle class" in addressing economic problems, Peggy Chilton, 72, an independent from Los Angeles who hasn't decided on a candidate, said of Obama.
The numbers don't get better for McCain when it comes to personal traits.
Following debates between the two rivals in which the Arizona senator has appeared angry at times, 46 percent consider him hot-tempered, more than triple the 13 percent who say so about Obama.
"He'd be a little nerve-racking to have in the White House, jumping real fast," Darlene Finley, 48, an Obama-leaning independent from Ossineke, Mich., said of McCain. "When you're talking about war, that's something you don't want to do, jumping real fast."
Since September, McCain has lost ground on nearly every quality tested in the poll, including lower scores for being likable, decisive, honest, competent, intelligent and inspiring.
He's also lost ground for understanding ordinary people's problems, caring about "people like you" and improving America's international standing. Growing numbers even see him as supporting big business over the public interest and being influenced by lobbyists — despite repeated vows to do the opposite.
"It's the negativism" from McCain's campaign, said Noam Izenberg, a planetary scientist from Columbia, Md., who backs Obama. "It's very frustrating for me. I used to like McCain."
Obama's ratings have stayed level since last month for most qualities tested, though he has shown some improvement in whether he's considered experienced and decisive.
The AP-Yahoo News poll included 841 likely voters and was conducted from Oct. 3-13. It has an overall margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.4 percentage points. Included were interviews with 373 people who initially said they were Democrats, 252 Republicans and 214 independents, for whom the margins of sampling error are plus or minus 5.1, 6.2 and 6.7 percentage points, respectively.
The poll was conducted over the Internet by Knowledge Networks, which initially contacted people using traditional telephone polling methods and followed with online interviews. People chosen for the study who had no Internet access were given it for free.
then why does the very prestigious Gallup poll have Obama leading by 2points, below the margin of error?
Bad Anonymous said "canada held an election this week and the conservatives scored a smashing victory over the liberals".
Wrong. A smashing victory would have been a majority government that could have ruled without challenge for four years. The conservatives got a minority government which puts them on a short leash as they can be defeated at any time. Its well known that the conservatives should have been able to get a majority government due to the sponsorship scandal that damaged the Liberal brand. Canadians were eager to turf the Liberals but not at all happy about the alternative. The Conservatives have been unable to gain a majority in parliament because in the past they have pushed a social conservative anti-gay agenda that turned off Canadians. If it weren't for fears that the Conservatives would push such an agenda they would have easily won a majority government. Understanding this the Harper government has moved away from socially conservative issues in a failed attempt to attract mainstream voters. Harper, who had in the past bizarrely started adding "god bless" to the end of his speeches, has stopped apeing George Bush, stopped the anti-gay rhetoric and punished MPs who've spoken out against gays. There's no chance he'll risk his attempt at a moderate image by trying to repeal same sex marriage (something he couldn't do anyway).
62% of Canadians voted for someone other than the Conservatives that's not a "smashing victory" in anyone's books. Despite the recent attempts to appear moderate the vast majority of Canadians find the Conservatives to be dangerous and untrustworthy.
This post has been removed by the author.
Bad anonymous said "why does the very prestigious Gallup poll have Obama leading by 2points, below the margin of error?".
It doesn't, it has Obama leading by 6%. The very prestigious Hotline/FD tracking poll has Obama by +10, a double digit lead that's repeatedly been confirmed over the past week or so.
You can tell the 2% is an outlier because of Mccain's poor showing in all the personal characteristic/leadership polling as outlined by good anonymous.
"The very prestigious Hotline/FD tracking poll"
I just read a poll by Zogby that said 97% of Americans admire the Gallup poll and only .02% of Americans have ever heard of the Hotline poll.
That's a very interesting statisic!
"The Conservatives have been unable to gain a majority in parliament because in the past they have pushed a social conservative anti-gay agenda"
I think Canadians might be a little more successful as a country if they'd stop making the gay agenda their top priority when they vote.
Just a tip, guys.
http://www.rove.com/election
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