Ensuring a Man's Right to Choose
I hate to open this can of worms, but see if you can spot anything wrong with this picture. From Politics Daily:
I'm not even going to comment on this one.
An Ohio state legislator has introduced a bill called "Father's Rights Regarding Abortion" that requires written permission from the sperm provider before a physician can perform an abortion.
The improbably named Rep. John Adams, from Sidney, Ohio, failed to get similar legislation passed in 2007 after protests from Planned Parenthood, but he has brought the bill back with modified language. The penalties to patient and physician for violating the measure, were it to become law, would be severe.
Aborting without permission or "providing a false biological father would be a first-degree misdemeanor . . . and [warrant] a maximum $1,000 fine," Adams explained. "On the second occasion, providing false information would be considered a fifth-degree felony."
If the identity of the man is unknown, the pregnant woman would be required to submit a list of possibilities, and her doctor would have to conduct paternity tests, then seek the man's permission to abort. In cases of rape or incest, the bill requires proof via a court document, police report or indictment. Ohio Abortion Bill Would Guarantee a Man's Right to Choose
I'm not even going to comment on this one.
posted by JimK at 1:41 PM
27 Comments:
long overdue
Unless the couple decided together before they had sex to try to produce children, he has no say in how she decides to handle her unintended pregnancy.
do you think she should be able to make a unilateral decision to murder the child after birth too?
I personally think if one is going to oppose abortion one should go ahead and do so clearly, so people can understand what you are doing and agree with you or not, as they are wont (or vote for you or not, based on your actions as a public official).
It's the same tactic as passing laws 'protecting traditional marriage.' Those would be laws encouraging vetting before marriage, pre-Cana conferences, etc. But that's not what those people mean. They mean opposing the marriages of like-gendered couples.
This double-speak is inherently dishonest. As I've noted before, they are commandments about that. It's an old questions, are lies in a good cause sinful, or necessary.
rrjr
“long overdue”
Agreed, that whole doctor/patient confidentiality thing is so passé.
“do you think she should be able to make a unilateral decision to murder the child after birth too?”
No no no, both parents should be in on that decision.
I guess I'm biased
my parents didn't murder me so I can't relate
WAUSAU, Wis. — Opening statements were set to begin Saturday in the trial of a father charged with second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of seeking medical help for his gravely ill 11-year-old daughter.
Dale Neumann's wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring in the 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents.
The girl died from undiagnosed diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying at the family's rural home in Weston in central Wisconsin. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.
Leilani Neumann, 41, faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.
Prosecutors contend Dale Neumann, 47, recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim the girl was too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk and that Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor.
Dale Neumann's attorney said Friday, when an eight-man, six-woman jury was picked to hear the case, that he didn't know whether the father would testify in his own defense.
"It would be just a guess right now," attorney Jay Kronenwetter said. "It's the defendant's right. Who knows how the trial goes?"
An Oregon jury on Thursday convicted a father of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. The father and mother were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.
In the Wisconsin case, Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson said Neumann's trial likely won't differ much from his wife's.
Doctors testified at the first trial that Madeline's gradually declining health would have gotten acute three or four days before she died as her body began shutting down. But despite being unresponsive and in a coma, the girl could have been saved very late into the day of her death with the proper treatment, the doctors said.
Leilani Neumann said during videotaped testimony that the family believes the Bible says healing comes from God and that she never expected her daughter to die. The Neumanns said the girl had not been to a doctor since she was 3.
thanks for the news story
any comment?
are you supporting this parent's actions?
Perhaps we should set a limit: no more than 50% if the posts on any given thread allowed to come from a given IP adress. Jim?
A nice thought Robert, but how would you enforce it? When one makes the first post then 100% of the posts are from a given IP address.
maybe we should just shut the whole site down
people are getting sick of homosexuality anyway
you've got Priya scared now
it's usually takes Priya five deleted posts just to get her thoughts together
and poor Anon-B
her cut-and-pastes are so long they usually cover three or four comment section
it's inhuman to expect to have some thoughts of her own
Bad anonymous said "people are getting sick of homosexuality anyway".
Obviously not you though, you can't get enough of it, you obsess over it all day long. Not surprising though, research shows that 80% of of anti-gay bigots are turned on by gay sex. They think by attacking gayness they can suppress their own desires for gay sex they can't accept.
hmmmm....I'll have to give that thought all the consideration it is due.
Don't delete it.
I realize Emproph was joking, but there really are couples who decide together to let their child die.
Thanks to the Anon who posted the story about the Neumanns. I've done some research and found a few items that might be of interest to Vigilance readers on this topic. (Even one for Anon from the WSJonline about possible ramifications of Kara Neumann's death last year.)
In 1944, the Supreme Court said, "Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children before they have reached the age of full and legal discretion when they can make that choice for themselves."
Kara Neumann will not reach the age of full and legal discretion to be allowed to make that choice for herself.
Here's the local media's report about the testimony of Madeline Kara Neumann's mother at her husband's trial for their daughter's death.
...Leilani Neumann [Kara's mother] said her family is not against doctors, but chooses not to use them.
“It would have shown complete disobedience to what we believe in,” Leilani Neumann said.
Leilani Neumann said she thought a falling out with former friends and potential business partners caused her daughter to become ill.
The Neumanns moved to Weston from California three years ago and opened a coffee shop where they held regular Bible study sessions. They invited Randy and Althea Wormgoor to move from California, worship with the Neumanns and began training them to open their own coffee shop.
The Wormgoors and Neumanns had a falling out about two weeks before Kara’s death due to business and religious conflicts, Leilani Neumann said.
Leilani Neumann testified that she noticed that Kara was tired Friday night, two days before her death. She did not think anything was wrong with Kara so she did not cancel the Bible study session that night.
“I’m a mother and I love my children. If I sensed I needed to watch her closer, I would have,” Leilani Neumann said.
By Sunday morning, Kara was pale and unconscious and Leilani Neumann said she called the Wormgoors asking for reconciliation and prayer.
“Our feelings are that there was something spiritually wrong with her,” Leilani said. “We wanted to mend any bridges that was broken with the Wormgoors..."
When Kara's pancreas stopped working a few weeks before her death, her body ceased being able to absorb nutrients and water. While Kara was starving to death and dying of thirst before her parents' eyes, her mother didn't "feel" she needed to "watch her closer" or show "disobedience" to her own faith by having a doctor examine her dying daughter. Instead she and her husband "wanted to mend" bridges with the Wormgoors. Now Kara's mother has been convicted of "reckless homicide." Ignorance is no excuse for a parent failing to take care of the medical needs of their minor children.
IMHO cases like this test the limits of "freedom of religion" as do cases of teens forced into harmful reparative therapy by well-meaning adults.
There's lots more information at CHILD - Children's Healthcare Is a Legal Duty.
this is no test of the limits of freedom of religion at all
parents have a right to sacrifice for their own religious beliefs without limit(and, in this case, they have heretical beliefs) but they have no right to require their kids or anyone else to make those sacrifices
In this country, many parents can't take their children to doctors because they can't afford it.
that's not true, Robo
That's right Robert. Doctor bills are high, so are health insurance premiums, and the cost of some drugs are astronomical.
Many American cannot afford doctor visits, health insurance, or prescription drugs because Bush/Cheney's medicare revisions, which Bush signed into law December, 2003, were dictated by the healthcare industry. We all remember, for example, that Bush kept"the federal government from negotiating with manufacturers over drug prices for those enrolled."
Because of Bush's kowtowing to US pharmaceutical companies, some cities and some senior citizens took it upon themselves to organize bus trips to Canada or Mexico to be able to afford their prescription drugs. At least on state Governor even tried to get the Bush/Cheney administration to help "create a cross-border testing and inspection program to ensure drug safety."
But there is a better way. We need a truly and full public option health care plan for all our citizens.
We already have VA's Veteran Health Administration and the Military Health System for active-duty soldiers and their families; both are public plans. There have been some problems along the way, like the shoddy conditions at some VA hospitals, but by and large, these systems are the envy of the world.
This is America. We can do at least as well for the rest of our citizens as other nations do for theirs.
yes, we can get Braney Frank to decide when it's worth giving them a life-saving operation and when it's better to just let them die
that'll help everyone avoid the stress of making their own decisions
ever talk to anyone from Canada, Anon-B?
most people hate their system
To the linkphobic Anon, I linked to Canada and 6 "other nations" in my comment above. Canada is the third nation you'll find when you follow the "other nations" link, above.
yes, we can get Braney Frank to decide when it's worth giving them a life-saving operation and when it's better to just let them die
Oh wow! Which page of the health plan being worked on in Congress stipulates that decision power has been granted to Representative Frank? Cut and paste us the quote so we know you're not spinning more lies.
Tell us, is that how it works at the VA now, Barney Frank decides which vets get treatment and which don't? Who decided which vets got treatment or not before Frank was elected to make these decisions for us?
Let me help you avoid the stress of doing actual research. You're lying.
hey
aunt idiot
could you cut and paste the lie you're talking about
I don't see it
aunt idiot
Oh wow, Lucy! How long did it take you to come up with that one? Thanks for demonstrating you're out of arguments and using a personal insult to defend yourself after posting a lie. How typical.
And thanks too for confirming you can't see what's right in front of your eyes. Your lie is cut and pasted in the first two lines in Italics font that you'll find when you scroll up from here.
So cut and paste the text in the House bill where it says Barney Frank will make medical decisions about who gets "a life-saving operation" and who won't. And then you can cut and paste Ann Coulter's "proof" Lynn Sweet's question was a plant.
well, I think the individual who asked you to specify where the lie is would not have guessed that this is what you mean:
"yes, we can get Braney Frank to decide when it's worth giving them a life-saving operation and when it's better to just let them die"
that remark was a response to your saying:
"This is America. We can do at least as well for the rest of our citizens as other nations do for theirs."
So, you want us to have a health care entitlement similar to other countries who have indeed turned medical decisions into a bureaucratic and political football. Whenever an entitlement becomes a government expenditure, we lose control over our own lives.
Public schools are a perfect example. The government takes your money and takes over the whole process of educating your kids. They tell you what school they're going to, who their teacher will be, what they will learn, et al.
The same thing will happen with medicine.
The fact that Obama is making concessions doesn't change his agenda. There is a clear public record of his intentions. He wants the government to take over your health care.
Anyway, to say if we want to be like other countries we can get the head gay to take it over health care is not a lie and couldn't even possibly be.
I guess aunt idiot was accurate but I prefer Anon-B
Right -- they were too stupid to notice that the only text of theirs I quoted and italicized was the lie I talking about!
Jim's right. No liberal could make you Anons up. You are unreal.
turned medical decisions into a bureaucratic and political football.
Do you think anyone with private health insurance thinks that "medical decisions" made over at BlueCross or AETNA, etc., are NOT made by "bureaucrats" there? Anyone ever denied coverage of a claim knows that it was some bureaucrat who makes their living off of telling you "sorry that's not covered," who made the decision.
Your school analogy is way off. Everyone has school choice and can send their kids to any school they want, private or public. It's their decision.
If money to pay for private school is a problem, there are options there too. Scholarships, grants, student loans are available. Thank goodness Obama insisted on making more money for education available. It's a great investment in this nation's future.
Even dirt poor people like me can afford to send a kid to private school because good schools want good students. My youngest MCPS K-12 daughter has a full four year free ride scholarship to a private Catholic college because they appreciate her academic achievements and leadership.
"Your school analogy is way off. Everyone has school choice and can send their kids to any school they want, private or public. It's their decision.
If money to pay for private school is a problem, there are options there too. Scholarships, grants, student loans are available. Thank goodness Obama insisted on making more money for education available. It's a great investment in this nation's future.
Even dirt poor people like me can afford to send a kid to private school because good schools want good students. My youngest MCPS K-12 daughter has a full four year free ride scholarship to a private Catholic college because they appreciate her academic achievements and leadership."
I was obviously talking about elementary and secondary education, Anon-B. You are so blatantly dishonest.
If you are a single mother and live in the inner city, you have little choice but to send your kids to whatever dangerous hellhole the government tells you to.
When the government rules that everyone must sign up for health insurance, there will be trade-offs for poor people that they should be able to decide on for themselves.
I was obviously talking about elementary and secondary education, Anon-B. You are so blatantly dishonest.
Dishonest, no, nor am I psychic. I can't read your mind, only your words. And it's easy to see the words "elementary" and "secondary" did not appear anywhere on this thread until you typed them at 10:18 this morning.
If you'd like to have an honest and meaningful conversation about schools, I suggest you take care to make sure your meaning is clear.
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