Oh Those Birthers
I'm trying to get this straight. Some people are saying that Barack Obama was born outside the United States and is not eligible to be President. Whatever, I'm not going to go through the details, I am mainly interested in understanding why anybody would want to believe that, given that his papers are in order and there is no evidence whatsoever to support the belief.
Let's say he was born in Kenya, or Indonesia, or his mother was not old enough, or whatever, and see what we'd conclude. First let's say he's not a natural-born American citizen, but thinks he is. Well, none of us remember being born, maybe they always told him he was born in Hawaii, and his paperwork is all in order to support that premise. Okay, so the uproar would be that he has violated a Constitutional technicality, and ... then what? He made a mistake, he was elected by a great majority of voters, and now he should be removed from office? All his decisions voided, all his words expunged from whitehouse.gov? A second election held? Maybe we would have to re-start the war on Iraq, let the economy collapse entirely and get those unemployed torturers back to work. Somehow I don't think that would be quite worth it. I suppose it would go to the legal system for rulings. So far no court has seen anything interesting in the case.
Ratchet it up one notch. Say he is not a natural born citizen, and he knew it but concealed the fact. Again, what are you going to do? Recall him from office? Hold a special election? Does anybody even understand why it matters whether he literally popped out of the womb in Africa and then moved to Hawaii as a newborn, or popped out in Hawaii? Does that distinction really affect anything? If he lied about where he was born then we would have the same legal situation as if he hadn't known, which is that the courts would be asked to rule on the legitimacy of his Presidency. And, again, nobody has made this case strongly enough to get any court's attention. His papers are in order and there is no reason in the world to believe he is lying about where he was born.
I don't know why anybody believes these stories, but I can read this two ways. Either this is the sour grapes bitterness of Republicans who wish their guy had won, and they'll cling to anything to reverse the will of the voters, or people really think a conspiracy is at work. Ratchet up another notch.
I kind of like the idea of a conspiracy. Somebody had a plan to import a mixed-race baby from Africa (rather than arrange for him to be born in the US), raise him up, send him to law school, introduce him to powerful people, and have him elected to be President of the United States. His victory in November then didn't have anything to do with his amazing oratorical skills, his ability to think lightning-fast on his feet, his unmatched breadth of knowledge and ability to reason about super-complicated things at a fine level of detail, or the fact that he has a beautiful wife, six-pack abs, and can hit a three-pointer on the first try under pressure. You and I and millions of other Americans independently decided to push the button beside Obama (D) so some cabal of evil individuals could take over the world. That, people, is a very successful conspiracy!
Maybe history is a shell game played by shadowy figures that the rest of us don't know about, executing plans that take generations to bear fruit. We ourselves, from this view, don't really have any will of our own but only the illusion of controlling our own actions, we really only work the will of our patient, clever, and oh-so-sneaky masters. The election outcome was pre-arranged, the campaign a charade played out to give a credible appearance, we didn't choose to push that button in the voting booth, we were compelled by vast forces beyond our comprehension.
The alternative theory is that the Republicans are mad because their party is a big fat failure and there's nothing they can do about it except cry and make stuff up.
What do you think -- multigenerational conspiracy by shadowy figures, or sour grapes? Aw, come on, it could be a gigantic conspiracy extending across continents over more than a half century to allow evil people to take over the world.
I was reading today about the lady in the red shirt who became famous last week when she stood up during a congressman's speech and demanded to know why Obama hasn't produced a birth certificate and everybody cheered. You've seen the video, right? If not, watch it HERE. Usually when we talk about nuts on this blog we mean extremists, people who are adamant about self-serving beliefs pieced together out of nontruths linked by illogic, we don't usually actually mean mentally ill people.
Here's the local Delaware paper talking about her.
You might be interested to listen to clips of the birthers' spokesperson calling into the radio station, as mentioned in the news story. Listen HERE. Hoo boy.
Let's say he was born in Kenya, or Indonesia, or his mother was not old enough, or whatever, and see what we'd conclude. First let's say he's not a natural-born American citizen, but thinks he is. Well, none of us remember being born, maybe they always told him he was born in Hawaii, and his paperwork is all in order to support that premise. Okay, so the uproar would be that he has violated a Constitutional technicality, and ... then what? He made a mistake, he was elected by a great majority of voters, and now he should be removed from office? All his decisions voided, all his words expunged from whitehouse.gov? A second election held? Maybe we would have to re-start the war on Iraq, let the economy collapse entirely and get those unemployed torturers back to work. Somehow I don't think that would be quite worth it. I suppose it would go to the legal system for rulings. So far no court has seen anything interesting in the case.
Ratchet it up one notch. Say he is not a natural born citizen, and he knew it but concealed the fact. Again, what are you going to do? Recall him from office? Hold a special election? Does anybody even understand why it matters whether he literally popped out of the womb in Africa and then moved to Hawaii as a newborn, or popped out in Hawaii? Does that distinction really affect anything? If he lied about where he was born then we would have the same legal situation as if he hadn't known, which is that the courts would be asked to rule on the legitimacy of his Presidency. And, again, nobody has made this case strongly enough to get any court's attention. His papers are in order and there is no reason in the world to believe he is lying about where he was born.
I don't know why anybody believes these stories, but I can read this two ways. Either this is the sour grapes bitterness of Republicans who wish their guy had won, and they'll cling to anything to reverse the will of the voters, or people really think a conspiracy is at work. Ratchet up another notch.
I kind of like the idea of a conspiracy. Somebody had a plan to import a mixed-race baby from Africa (rather than arrange for him to be born in the US), raise him up, send him to law school, introduce him to powerful people, and have him elected to be President of the United States. His victory in November then didn't have anything to do with his amazing oratorical skills, his ability to think lightning-fast on his feet, his unmatched breadth of knowledge and ability to reason about super-complicated things at a fine level of detail, or the fact that he has a beautiful wife, six-pack abs, and can hit a three-pointer on the first try under pressure. You and I and millions of other Americans independently decided to push the button beside Obama (D) so some cabal of evil individuals could take over the world. That, people, is a very successful conspiracy!
Maybe history is a shell game played by shadowy figures that the rest of us don't know about, executing plans that take generations to bear fruit. We ourselves, from this view, don't really have any will of our own but only the illusion of controlling our own actions, we really only work the will of our patient, clever, and oh-so-sneaky masters. The election outcome was pre-arranged, the campaign a charade played out to give a credible appearance, we didn't choose to push that button in the voting booth, we were compelled by vast forces beyond our comprehension.
The alternative theory is that the Republicans are mad because their party is a big fat failure and there's nothing they can do about it except cry and make stuff up.
What do you think -- multigenerational conspiracy by shadowy figures, or sour grapes? Aw, come on, it could be a gigantic conspiracy extending across continents over more than a half century to allow evil people to take over the world.
I was reading today about the lady in the red shirt who became famous last week when she stood up during a congressman's speech and demanded to know why Obama hasn't produced a birth certificate and everybody cheered. You've seen the video, right? If not, watch it HERE. Usually when we talk about nuts on this blog we mean extremists, people who are adamant about self-serving beliefs pieced together out of nontruths linked by illogic, we don't usually actually mean mentally ill people.
Here's the local Delaware paper talking about her.
The star of the show -- known as "Crazy Eileen" to callers of a Sussex County talk radio station -- has gone into seclusion, declining interviews and avoiding publicity, even as previous statements by her have emerged referring to Obama as "the antichrist" and speaking of aliens and angels.
"She doesn't want to be another 'Joe the Plumber' I think," said Dan Gaffney, program director and morning host at WGMD 92.7 FM.
...
The video of the Castle meeting, taken by someone in the audience, shows the woman holding a small American flag and what she said was her birth certificate, asking why people are ignoring Obama's birth. She charged that Obama is a citizen of Kenya, not the United States.
Castle, a Republican, was booed at the meeting while reiterating that Obama is a U.S. citizen.
The crowd applauded and cheered as the woman yelled, "I don't want this flag to change! I want my country back!"
The Constitution states that a person must be a "natural-born citizen" to be eligible for the presidency. The birthers contend that Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate is a fake, and many say he was actually born in Kenya, his father's homeland.
Limbaugh, the nationally syndicated radio talk show host, joked that Obama and God have something in common -- the lack of a birth certificate. Dobbs has broached the issue several times, saying at one point, "The questions won't go away."
And 10 Republican members of Congress have co-sponsored a bill that would require future presidential candidates to provide a copy of their original birth certificate.
Little is known about the woman who triggered the recent firestorm. Gaffney, the WGMD morning host, said she is believed to be from the Millsboro area.
According to another WGMD host, Jared Morris, she has been banned from calling the station -- known for its conservative leanings and hosts -- on several occasions.
In a call from a January show, on New Year's predictions, the woman discusses aliens, angels and the end of life on Earth, according to an audio clip Morris posted on YouTube this week.
In a videotaped introduction, Morris said the woman featured on the YouTube video from the meeting was a regular caller to his program.
"I want you guys to know exactly who you were cheering," Morris said in the clip.
She repeatedly has called Obama "the antichrist" on the airwaves, and "her phone calls have turned to faxes and threats," according to Morris.
"I have actually talked to an angel who came down in human form," she said during the Jan. 1 show. "We will have alien contact in October of this year, in the southwestern USA."
One prediction may seem ironic in light of the anger expressed in her diatribe toward Castle: "There will be peace among men and negativity will end," she told Morris.
Through the looking glass on YouTube
You might be interested to listen to clips of the birthers' spokesperson calling into the radio station, as mentioned in the news story. Listen HERE. Hoo boy.
posted by JimK at 8:51 PM
35 Comments:
ooh, I don't think O is a Manchurian candidate
still, the Constitutional provision is more than a technicality
its purpose is to ensure that no one who is not loyal to the best interest of America gains power
at minimum, O
-had a father and stepfather who were not Americans and
-had a mother drawn to foreigners and
-spent a portion of youth overseas, going to Muslim schools and
-began his political career with a fundraiser in the home of someone who once bombed the Pentagon and escaped prison on a techincality
-has not exactly acted in the best interests of our country thus far and
If it turns out he's a foreigner and didn't know it, he'll resign.
If it turns out he's a foreigner and did know it, he'll be impeached.
Biden will become President which would be horrible for the country but which would be corrected in 2012.
Of course, all this probably isn't true but the reactions make things seem suspicious. It seems like people are covering up.
Appoint a special prosecutor with a good reputation for getting to the bottom of things, like Ken Starr, who can examine the Hawaiian records, interview the grandmother and find out if there are any Monica Lewinsky incidents out there.
you know, Barry really is doing a bang-up job on this whole health care thing
the WSJ is reporting this morning that Americans now oppose Obama's health plan by 42-36%
what's notable is that their objections can't be too specific because the major details change daily
it would appear that they are simply losing confidence in O
in related news, research out today shows that a pint of Guinness a day reduces the risk of heart attacks and strokes
Sir BO could use today's keg summit to announce a new program to reduce health care costs that might really work
a pint of Guinness a day for every American until bailout funds run dry!
then, Anon-B could keep on glubbing until a ripe old age
Obama can't be the anti-christ. I remember in church learning that the anti-christ will be gay.
Oh Lucy, you never tire of spinning half truths, do you?
Bloomberg reports
...When asked their opinion in general of Obama’s health-care plan, 36 percent termed it a good idea while 42 percent judged it a bad idea. In the April survey, 33 percent rated Obama’s plan good while 26 said it was bad.
An encouraging sign for Obama is that when poll respondents were given details of the plan, the numbers changed significantly, with 56 percent in favor and 38 percent opposed...
Lay off the booze, your half truths are making you look bad.
LOL Are you sure, Robert? I went to a different house of worship and heard the anti-christ was going to be a woman!
"Anonymous" - your fantasies become more delusional every time you post here.
The Constitution simply states the requirement that a President must be "native born". It says no where that "its purpose is to ensure that no one who is not loyal to the best interest of America gains power". Where do you find the idea that a "loyalty" test is a requirement?
As it stands now, David Duke or Glenn Beck could become President (a wild stretch, to be sure) but they would be qualified. I guess they have the "best interest of America" as their objective.
Your continued harping about the legitimacy of Obama's Presidency causes readers here to question your sanity (or at least your efforts to disguise some other attribute or belief that you don't want to be openly honest about).
We get your dislike of President Obama (he"-has not exactly acted in the best interests of our country thus far" - whatever that means). Do you really think you will be able to convince us that he is "invalid"?
Diogenes
"I remember in church learning that the anti-christ will be gay."
I almost said something about that Robert but decided to pass. Leave it to you to stir things up.
First of all, the verse you're referring to says that the anti-Christ hates women.
I never assumed that meant gay but it could be that I'm dense. I don't think all misogynists are gay.
I've never heard anyone else say the Anti-Christ is gay either.
Secondly, the whole scenario that was made popular in the secular world by Hal Lindsey and the Left Behind books is very speculative and not a consensus view of the eschatological passages where literal events and allegory appear mixed.
People whose biblical view I generally find more compelling believe the events described and given widespread discussion in the media actually happened about 35 years after the cruxifixion when the emperor set up a statue of himself to be worshipped in the temple and the Roman legions destroyed the temple and the Jewish masses fled to the hills
"An encouraging sign for Obama is that when poll respondents were given details of the plan, the numbers changed significantly, with 56 percent in favor and 38 percent opposed"
But what details, Anon-B? They change day-to-day.
The best explanation for what you're saying is that they don't know the details and don't believe Obama has it right.
I don't see why that would be encouraging to him.
"Your continued harping about the legitimacy of Obama's Presidency causes readers here to question your sanity"
One sign of sanity is the ability to handle uncertainty.
I simply say there is a possibility that the allegations are true.
One sign of insanity is the inability to handle uncertainty.
Kind of like those who fall to pieces at the idea that Obama could possibly be born in another country even though his father was from that country and his grandmother has said she witnessed his birth there.
Seems your sanity is more in question than mine.
"We get your dislike of President Obama"
Actually, I like Barry alot. I just don't think he's qualified to be President and that his vision is faulty.
If the Presidency were just a face thing where you represent the country but have no real power, I'd be fine with him.
He'd make a great Queen of England!
"Anonymous" who said: "I simply say there is a possibility that the allegations are true."
That is fairy-tale delusion.
Exactly what proof do you have that the allegations about President Obama's citizenship are true? (And his having an African father, his going to school in foreign countries, his mother "drawn to foreigners", and beginning his political career with a fundraiser in the home of someone who once bombed the Pentagon (sic.)... are NOT proof that the President is not a citizen of the United States, despite your red-herring attempts to create "facts".
Perhaps you feel a responsibility to give some sort of credence to the rantings of the lunatic fringe, who in the face of legally attested-to legitimacy of his birth in Hawaii, simply cannot accept the truth and the reality of the citizens having elected an African-American as President?
Medical science believes that people who live in fantasy worlds are not mentally healthy. You wouldn't want us to think that you have a mental health problem, would you?
Diogenes
President Obama's mother was a college freshman when she met, got pregnant, and then married the father, Barack Obama, Sr.
I suspect that she did not even have a passport to leave the United States. In any event, to even begin to believe the Birthers' contention that President Obama was not born in the United States, one would have to believe that, upon becoming pregnant, Anne Dedham Obama, after marrying Barack Sr., left Hawaii to go to Kenya to have her child there in August 1961, contrary to all the evidence in Hawaii (the birth certificate, the birth announcement in the local newspaper -- and the likelihood that medical care in Hawaii was superior to anything she could have gotten in Kenya).
But even if Mrs. Obama did travel to Kenya to give birth, her son would still be an American citizen. The Constitution does not say "native born citizen." Rather, it says "natural born citizen." When Michigan Governor George Romney ran for the GOP presidential nomination in the late 1960s, concerns were raised because he was born in Mexico, where his parents were then living, having fled persecution of Mormons in the United States. Because the Romneys were American citizens, George was a "natural born citizen" of the United States, and thus was eligible to be president.
Those of us who are early boomers will remember that George Romney's campaign ended when, having changed his position and announcing he was opposed to the War in Viet Nam, he explained his earlier support on the fact that he had been "brainwashed" by military officials who supported the war. I never fully understood why that should have driven him out. While the word choice was not felicitous, most of the country had been convinced that the War was a good idea in the early and mid-1960s due to propaganda that misrepresented the full circumstances of the conflict and, at best, grossly overestimated the capability of the United States to make a terrible situation better -- when, as we later discovered, we were only making a bad situation worse than it otherwise would have been.
"Exactly what proof do you have that the allegations about President Obama's citizenship are true?"
Never said there was proof. I said there was enough to at least warrant checking into.
In addition to displaying an inability to handle uncertainty, you also appear to be hallucinating. You might want to seek help.
I think most of what David has said is probably true but we should tie up the loose ends.
I never understood that whole Romney thing either, David.
I said there was enough to at least warrant checking into.
It's been checked, double-checked, and triple-checked, but here's Lucy saying "there was enough to at least warrant checking into."
when has the grandmother been brought in for questioning?
when has the actual birth certificate been publicly viewed?
have his youth travel documnets been found?
people at his Muslim school interviewed?
"Anonymous"...when you said: "In addition to displaying an inability to handle uncertainty, you also appear to be hallucinating. You might want to seek help." I assume you are referring to yourself...a very apt self-description.
As stated earlier, "Medical science believes that people who live in fantasy worlds are not mentally healthy. You wouldn't want us to think that you have a mental health problem, would you?"
Diogenes
I've heard of the passage about the anti-christ, but don't know which it is.
I'm in fact referring to an actual sermon given by my pastor (who had baptized the spring before) to encourage the congregation to vote against an lgbt-ENDA in Maine. He'd gotten me involved in my latest round of reparative therapy, and recommended that I not go to that church service. He was right, I felt betrayed, and began my personal journey away from fundamentalism and the 'ex-gay' attempts.
Do you have anything to read on these ideas that these eschatalogical events happened when Titus captured Jerusalem? I thought a temple of Juppiter wasn't erected by the Romans until the time of Hadrian (thus the name Aelia Capitolina for Roman Jerusalem, after Hadrian's family, the Aelians, and Capitoline Jove). I'm interested. Direct me where I can read.
I'll find something for you, Robert
so, in other words anonymous, you don't think he's American enough.
Well, I'm sorry, the constitution doesn't say anything about being American enough, or any such thing about "not loyal the the best interest of America".
Funny how you scoff at others regarding the constitutional provision being "more than technicality" ---when you yourself add your own opinions to it. Here's what it says, Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
Your whole post is what's called "moving the goalpost". Because Obama has produced a legal document, and there's no legit evidence to the contrary, indeed the Hawaiian government, AGAIN, states he is a natural born citizen:
"I ... have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen," Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said in a brief statement. "I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago."
But since you cannot harp on the Birth certificate without essentially calling the Health Director a liar, you move the goalpost. Now suddenly, it's about him not being American Enough, and you come complete with a list of opinions and suspicions that somehow disqualify Obama.
Moving goalposts is a signal that you're losing the argument. Having met previous goalposts, you're searching for something, anything to disqualify him from presidency.
Next up, the fact that Obama adopted a Portuguese Water Dog is an admission of guilt!!! He's disqualified because his dog isn't American!
you
lost
get
over
it.
Here's an interesting new fact in this birther controversy. The head of the RNC issued a statement yesterday, and here it is:
Exclusive: Michael Steele Blasts Birtherism As “Unnecessary Distraction,” Says Obama Is “U.S. Citizen”
“Chairman Steele believes that this is an unnecessary distraction and believes that the president is a U.S. citizen. Chairman Steele wants to move beyond this conversation and continue discussing the real and immediate concerns that face American families like the economy and health care. Americans are concerned with President Obama’s health care plan, a failed stimulus package and a ballooning deficit. Chairman Steele has many other issues to take up with the president that have to do with policy, not a birth certificate.”
So, will the GOP become the party of birtherism, or will Steele manage to prevent it from being taken over by intolerant kooks like "Crazy Eileen?"
Statement of Senator Jim DeMint
...the South Carolina Republican found himself defending Barack Obama from the fringier elements of his own political party: the conspiracy theorists who insist the president was not born in the United States.
"I may have disagreements with [the president] on issues," DeMint told the Huffington Post. "But he is my president, he deserves our respect, and we need forget that nonsense ...
"He is not only a citizen," he added, "he is our president."
"so, in other words anonymous, you don't think he's American enough"
I didn't say that. I said there a number of factors that could lead one to believe that is feasible from an objective point of view.
Granted, these are things that should have followed through by voters before he was elected. And as long as his papers and story are in order, that's the end of the story.
Why there is resistance to such an accounting is the real mystery here.
"Well, I'm sorry, the constitution doesn't say anything about being American enough, or any such thing about "not loyal the the best interest of America"."
You might want to step back and consider what you're saying, Jason.
America is actually the country Obooma's been elected President of.
"Moving goalposts is a signal that you're losing the argument. Having met previous goalposts, you're searching for something, anything to disqualify him from presidency."
I'm not making an argument other than that shouldn't stifle debate.
"you
lost
get
over
it"
Well, if you're a Democrat, you won the election and you don't seem to be able to accept it.
What's so scary is how threatened you seem to be. If the proof is so solid, what are you so insecure about.
You see this all the time in fascist states.
Over-reacting.
The GOP is figuring out that they can't win by kowtowing to the "Crazy Eileen's" of the world.
But by all means CrazyEileenAnon, keep asking for "papers and story [to be] in order" when the Constitutional requirements to hold the Office of President are that the person must be "a natural born Citizen, ...the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
Just make up the rules as you go along. Nobody will notice.
< eye roll >
and how can one determine is someone is natural born or 35 without seeing proof
no one thinks you should takes someone's word for it
your radar's off, you crazy old bat
get a rabies shot
hmmmm...Aunt Bee thinks requiring someone to document that they meet the requirements of the Constitution for holding office is unconstitutional
I think that's what Ahmadinejad's been trying to tell everyone in Iran.
I think we have a match!
how can one determine is someone is natural born or 35 without seeing proof
They can't. That's why Obama posted his birth certificate on line, a birth certificate issued by the the State of Hawaii, the US state Obama was born in.
Aunt Bee thinks requiring someone to document that they meet the requirements of the Constitution for holding office is unconstitutional
Obama has met the "requirement of the Constitution" for holding office. You're the one who thinks he hasn't because you cannot accept that he won.
Poor baby. Good luck finding more "Crazy Eileens" to join you.
Glub glub glub
"Annymouse"...are all of the Republican members of the House of Representatives wrong about President Obama's legal citizenship! All of them voted for the resolution recongnizing Hawaii's 50th Anniversary as a State, which included a direct reference to Hawaii as the birthplace of our President.
Well...laudy me! Even the so-called "birther" imbeciles voted for the Resolution. No doubt they were duped into voting that way? Fat chance.
This is nothing but an expensive diversion to get the public's mind off of the failure of the Republicans in Congress and their program of "NO"
Citizen
Very interesting information in the following:
"The sad state of American mind can be seen in this Daily Kos-sponsored poll by Research 2000 (Jul 27, 2009 - Jul 30, 2009; margin of error 2%) that reveals the demo of the average birther is -- SURPRISE -- white Republican men living in the South. Special props to the 30% of Republicans and Southern know-nothings who checked off they were "not sure" that the President is an American citizen." *
Question: Do you believe that Barrack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
(Here is the poll breakdown):
Yes No Not sure
All 77% 11% 12%
Men 75 12 13
Women 79 10 11
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
oth/ref 80 9 11
Non-voters 84 7 9
White 71 14 15
Black 97 1 2
Latino 87 6 7
oth/ref 88 6 6
18-29 88 4 8
30-44 72 14 14
45-59 82 4 8
60+ 69 17 14
N. East 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
M. West 90 6 4
West 87 7 6 *
*http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12311/open-thread-poll-breaks-down-the-birther-demo
Anybody here see our various "Anonymi" in these figures?
It's no wonder that the Republicans are the loser party. They have no idea of how the American people feel or think. I suppose there are those posters here who will argue the brilliance of this GOP strategy and its projected success in reversing the results of the 2008 elections.
RT
Some people are saying that Barack Obama was born outside the United States and is not eligible to be President.whatever
Now some people says he was born in Kenya.
Kooks like "Crazy Eileen" are saying it, mdeals, and some kooky GOP House members are signing on, welcoming these kooks into the Grand Old Party.
You're a little behind the times though. Just yesterday, the House Minority Whip, Eric Cantor, had his spokesman say:
“Mr. Cantor doesn’t question the President’s citizenship, but he has serious questions about the President’s push for government controlled healthcare, taxes on small business job creators, and a huge energy tax on middle class families. He finds it ironic that those most eager to talk about the President’s citizenship are in fact some of his biggest cheerleaders–whether it’s Chris Matthews or others on MSNBC, the Huffington Post, or camera toting liberal bloggers chasing people through the streets of Washington.”
Oh right, Mr. Cantor, everyone believes it is the "liberal bloggers" who are pushing this birther theory! NOT!!! Don't you read World Net Daily? Their latest headline is New poll shows birthers growing: Majority of GOP, Southerners question president's birthplace
Tell us Mr. Cantor, how many liberals have signed on to cosponsor GOP Representative Bill Posey's "birther bill?" None, but ten GOP House members have joined Rep. Posey. They are:
Rep Blackburn, Marsha [TN-7]
Rep Burton, Dan [IN-5]
Rep Campbell, John [CA-48]
Rep Carter, John R. [TX-31]
Rep Culberson, John Abney [TX-7] Rep Gohmert, Louie [TX-1]
Rep Goodlatte, Bob [VA-6]
Rep Marchant, Kenny [TX-24]
Rep Neugebauer, Randy [TX-19]
Rep Poe, Ted [TX-2]
To all: I am sorry for the formatting problem on my previous post (poll results related to the question: "Do you believe that Barrack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?"
I worked on formatting it when I typed it but it turned out looking like this. If you need a clearer version, use the link to the site of origin of this information.
RT
Thanks for posting the data, RT.
Here's a clickable link to Pam's House Blend Open thread: poll breaks down the birther demo to make it easy for Vigilance readers to see the data.
"so, in other words anonymous, you don't think he's American enough"
I didn't say that. I said there a number of factors that could lead one to believe that is feasible from an objective point of view.
Name one. You've provided conspiracy theories, not factors that could lead one to believe that it is feasible. EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION: This is what conspiracy theorists do, they present suspicions and doubts as if they are evidence.
They are not.
"Granted, these are things that should have followed through by voters before he was elected. And as long as his papers and story are in order, that's the end of the story.
Why there is resistance to such an accounting is the real mystery here. "
TALK TO YOUR SECRETARY OF STATE.
That's who's supposed to do the "accounting" they certify the ballot, it's their neck that's on the line if they certified an unqualified candidate.
What if find so odd is that nobody held Clinton, Reagan, or either of the Bushes to this same set of scrutiny. Why did they get a pass? Did you see any of their birth certificates? I didn't.
What I find so odd is that suddenly, suddenly the system we have in place is simply not good enough. Where have these objections been for the last few elections? If it doesn't matter what Obama "says" about his birthplace, then it doesn't matter what any other candidate "says" either.
"Well, I'm sorry, the constitution doesn't say anything about being American enough, or any such thing about "not loyal the the best interest of America"."
You might want to step back and consider what you're saying, Jason.
America is actually the country Obooma's been elected President of.
And you should try reading our laws, they don't say you have to have a certain level of so-called loyalty to the country, nor does it describe what exactly that loyalty should look like. It does not concern itself with such subjective bullshit. You create these arbitrary constructs of loyalty just so you can place Obama outside them, again, moving goalposts.
"Moving goalposts is a signal that you're losing the argument. Having met previous goalposts, you're searching for something, anything to disqualify him from presidency."
I'm not making an argument other than that shouldn't stifle debate.
There is no debate, it is a FACT that Obama was born in this country. That is what the State of Hawaii has on file. If we cannot trust their files, or their public statements, his original birth certificate is just as untrustworthy.
In order for this "debate" to have any merit, there has to be a 50 year old conspiracy involiving complete and total compliance by the federal government, the republican party, Bush, Palin, McCain, Clinton, the state of Hawaii, the democrats, the independent party, the green party, and the state of illinois. A conspiracy THAT elaborate and complete would not have left unaccounted for a simple birth certificate. They would not be that sloppy (whoever "they" are).
"you
lost
get
over
it"
Well, if you're a Democrat, you won the election and you don't seem to be able to accept it.
I'm not a dem, but I seem to have no problem accepting the election. You don't seem to be from this planet because the people accepting something don't bring evidence trying to undermine it. It's YOU who can't accept it.
What's so scary is how threatened you seem to be. If the proof is so solid, what are you so insecure about.
The proof is solid. I'm not insecure. I'm not clinging to a series of faulty, factually inaccurate and legally impotent conspiracy theories.
There is no substantial evidence to prove he is not a natural born citizen. The debate has been over for quite some time, but like most conspiracy theorists, you refuse to believe what's right in front of your face. He's got the seal of citizenship from the state of Hawaii and that meets the basic requirements of the constitution.
You start from the conclusion "Obama isn't our president" and work backwards trying to find a way to make that possible. You want objective? Science is objective, it starts with the evidence and comes to a conclusion. He's provided a legal birth record, the state has backed him up numerous times and evidence exists in two newspapers from the week he was born. That fits the bill and meets more than reasonable requirements. Matter of fact, Obama has provided more legal proof of his status as a natural born citizen than any other president in my lifetime. I know more about his birth records than I knew about any other president. For all you or I know about Clinton, Bush, and Reagan, they were born somewhere else and lied about it. We never saw any proof. I guess it is true, black people have to work twice as hard as white people to get the same outcome.
You see this all the time in fascist states.
Over-reacting.
And now that I've called you on your attempt to move goalposts, you resort to distractions like calling me a fascist and painting yourself as a reasonable person with questions. Well, if you were a reasonable person, the complete and accurate evidence already presented (you don't get much more accurate that legal documents and government testimony) should've answered your questions, but no, because you're the one over-reacting. He's a black democrat president, had to happen eventually, calm down.
Andrea- not anon
Birthers- what a bunch of dopes. I work with two- but I work with a lot of dumb people(no, not my engineers or scientists). Face it, moron anon- millions were spent on campaigns by Clinton and McCain- if there was any basis in this idiocy- it would have been found out years ago.
Your whole post is more than slightly silly and quie uninformed but who would be surprised here?
There persists here a continuing insinuation that I believe that Obama wasn't born in the country.
He may well have been but the proof isn't unshakeable.
Open his documents in Hawaii to public inspection and send an investigator to Kenya to interview his grandmother and follow up on whatever she says to ascertain the facts.
You keep saying things like Clinton and Bush never had their place of birth questioned.
But they both had two American parents and spent their entire youth here.
btw, Obama isn't a black President. He is of mixed race. Just as much white as he is black.
It's not generally that relevant except that the liberals here keep implying that any criticism of him could only be inspired by racism.
I've got news for you guys. Obama was elected with less experience than any President in history. His record so far shows what would be expected in such a circumstances.
He'll likely be a one-term President and if you guys keep implying that any criticism of him is racist, you risk setting back race relations in our country.
Not surprising because Democrats have always felt they benefit from the perpetuation of racism.
Think about the welfare of your country and support a color-blind socciety.
btw, Obama isn't a black President. He is of mixed race. Just as much white as he is black.
OK so you see somebody who looks just like Obama on the street. What's the first thing you think? Try being honest for once. I guarantee you do not think "he's just as much white as he is black."
Willie Horton was part white too but we all know that wasn't why his picture was used in Bushdaddy campaign ads or his name mentioned in almost every campaign speech. Lee Atwater, who pushed using Willie Horton in the GOPs Southern Strategy campaign tactic, predicted that "by the time this election is over, Willie Horton will be a household name." In the clarity that comes when facing death, Lee Atwater changed his stance and came to see the error of his divisive and hateful ways. Maybe now that the GOP is on its deathbed too, it'll find the same light that came to Lee Atwater:
"...my illness has taught me something about the nature of humanity, love, brotherhood and relationships that I never understood, and probably never would have. So, from that standpoint, there is some truth and good in everything."
You go ahead and wish for Obama and this nation to fail, Anon. I'm going to wish the GOP comes to see the error of its divisive and hateful ways and learns to embrace "the nature of humanity, love, brotherhood and relationships."
"There persists here a continuing insinuation that I believe that Obama wasn't born in the country.
He may well have been but the proof isn't unshakeable."
There's somethng "shakeable" about two newspapers, two government employees and legal document? You must have some pretty high standards. Higher, apparently, than the standards you had for bush, clinton, reagan -- as we've seen nothing of their birth certificates. We've seen more for Obama than any president in the past 30 years. If our system is flawed, then why wasn't anyone paying attention the past 30 years(or more)?
"Open his documents in Hawaii to public inspection and send an investigator to Kenya to interview his grandmother and follow up on whatever she says to ascertain the facts."
There is no reason to. YOu don't get it, do you? Just because you, or someone else isn't convinced doesn't mean anything. There are people who are "convinced" that the moon landing was faked -- despite plenty of evidence and debunking. If the evidence presented already is not good enough, no other evidence can be.
If we cannot believe a government document, the COB, from Hawaii, then we can't believe any other documents from Hawaii. If we can't believe two government employees, then we can't believe they'd release the full and complete docs either. If they're lying for him, then there's no magic bullet hiding in a drawer: it's long gone.
Between when this smear was first raised during the election and now, there has been plenty of time to destroy evidence and manufacture new evidence--- which is exactly what the birthers will claim if a "full" inspection happens. They will claim the long form is also a forgery, or invalid because a "t" isn't crossed perfectly, or because of some other invented technicality, they'll move goalposts again, they'll demand blood tests, it will not stop.
You keep saying things like Clinton and Bush never had their place of birth questioned.
But they both had two American parents and spent their entire youth here.
How do you know they had two American parents? Come on now, where's their birth certificates? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The constitution doesn't say you can't travel and it says NOTHING about who your parents are.
btw, Obama isn't a black President. He is of mixed race. Just as much white as he is black.
It's not generally that relevant except that the liberals here keep implying that any criticism of him could only be inspired by racism.
Because the criticism isn't grounded in reality, facts, or law. The choice is 50-year-old conspiracy of national scope or a bunch of wacky racists --- which seems more likely? To a reasonable person, option B seems more likely.
I've got news for you guys. Obama was elected with less experience than any President in history. His record so far shows what would be expected in such a circumstances.
He'll likely be a one-term President and if you guys keep implying that any criticism of him is racist, you risk setting back race relations in our country.
No, a cop arresting a black man in his own home sets our country back. Kids not being allowed to swim at a pool because of their skin color sets our country back. You keep running to the next goalpost, now we have to allow the investigation so that it's not racist? I've blasted every single one of your points, but you're a birther, you've got more. What's next?
"There is no reason to. YOu don't get it, do you? Just because you, or someone else isn't convinced doesn't mean anything."
Jason, as I've explained to you, I think he was probably born in Hawaii.
But 70 million Americans aren't sure.
The evidence needs to be examined.
Appoint Ken Starr and get it over with.
"They will claim the long form is also a forgery, or invalid because a "t" isn't crossed perfectly, or because of some other invented technicality,"
I wouldn't be very surprised if there is some technical problem.
It would explain the reluctance to be forthcoming with the evidence.
"The choice is 50-year-old conspiracy of national scope or a bunch of wacky racists --- which seems more likely?"
You keep acting like someone actually believes he was planted and groomed to be President.
That's ridiculous.
But it could be his mother lied to avoid other problems.
There will either be Congressional hearings or a special prosecutor.
Take your pick.
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