Tuesday, November 10, 2009

Grown-Ups Are the Problem Here

Interesting article in the New York Times, partly about rebellious teenagers and dress codes, partly about sexual orientation and gender identity, and mostly about stuffy grown-ups who are trying to force their outdated hang-ups on young people who are growing up to live in a future world:
BY now, most high school dress codes have just about done away with the guesswork.

Girls: no midriff-baring blouses, stiletto heels, miniskirts.

Boys: no sagging pants, muscle shirts.

But do the math.

“Rules” + “teenager” = “challenges.”

If the skirt is an acceptable length, can a boy wear it?

Can a girl attend her prom in a tuxedo?

In recent years, a growing number of teenagers have been dressing to articulate — or confound — gender identity and sexual orientation. Certainly they have been confounding school officials, whose responses have ranged from indifference to applause to bans.

Last week, a cross-dressing Houston senior was sent home because his wig violated the school’s dress code rule that a boy’s hair may not be “longer than the bottom of a regular shirt collar.” In October, officials at a high school in Cobb County, Ga., sent home a boy who favored wigs, makeup and skinny jeans. In August, a Mississippi student’s senior portrait was barred from her yearbook because she had posed in a tuxedo.

Other schools are more accepting of unconventional gender expression. In September, a freshman girl at Rincon High School in Tucson who identifies as male was nominated for homecoming prince. Last May, a gay male student at a Los Angeles high school was crowned prom queen. Can a Boy Wear a Skirt to School?

I'd say there are two ways to handle school dress, and no middle ground. One, schools can have uniforms. There are lots of good reasons for it, it eliminates a lot of hassle at home and at school, in the classroom and on the playground, it's clear and easy to enforce. You wear the uniform and that's it, it's a perfect way to raise a generation of robotic conformists. If the uniform calls for white socks and you wear gray ones you go home and change. Two, you let students dress themselves. Again, lot of good reasons, young people learn to make choices, to express themselves and develop as individuals, to accept others who are different.

But some schools seem to think you can let students choose their clothing within some vague limits. What are "sagging pants?" How much of your butt-crack has to show before you are cited for breaking the rules -- and then if you just pull your pants up while the teacher's looking, are you okay? What is "long hair?" "Too much make-up?" A school that tries to manage such rules, it seems to me, is going to find itself with nothing but headaches.

Beyond teenage rebellion there is a more serious question in this article, of course, and that is, how should a school manage the presence of students who violate traditional gender norms? The examples given in this NYT piece are good ones -- the transgender boy, originally known as a girl, who runs for homecoming prince, the gay boy who becomes prom queen. Interestingly and obviously, the students featured in these examples are popular and well-liked by their peers, even if they are unique or unusual young people. I have seen this in my own children's lives, they have friends who are gay and transgender, and it doesn't seem to matter. It's just a fact of life for them, Carrie has changed her name and is a boy now, it doesn't seem difficult or even awkward except when you try to explain it to your parents.

It seems to me the school administrators are causing this problem, they aren't responding to a problem. If you allow students the freedom to dress themselves then, as this article points out, you will have to accept that students who are allowed to express themselves may choose to express themselves in surprising ways. (Most American schools that have uniforms are religious schools where attitudes about sexual orientation and gender identity are handed down by authority.) There has been a revolution in the way Western society thinks about sex and gender in general, and part of it has been the acceptance of nuance in gender expression. Women wear pants these days, did you notice? Sex and gender are not really binary as the older generations believed.

The solution sounds easy, though it will be hard to implement. Schools could support students who choose to develop their personalities in unique ways, whether it has anything to do with sex and gender or not. There has to be some limit on aggressiveness, and some limit on expressions that genuinely cause disorder in the school environment -- and I don't mean that a bunch of bullies are teasing some kid for being different, I mean the disruption is caused by the student in question. I don't think our society is really suffering from a plague of nonconformity. Cultivating a positive sense of oneself as a unique person could be part of the educational system's mission.

Pretty good statement here:
Dress code conflicts often reflect a generational divide, with students coming of age in a culture that is more accepting of ambiguity and difference than that of the adults who make the rules.

“This generation is really challenging the gender norms we grew up with,” said Diane Ehrensaft, an Oakland psychologist who writes about gender. “A lot of youths say they won’t be bound by boys having to wear this or girls wearing that. For them, gender is a creative playing field.” Adults, she added, “become the gender police through dress codes.”

Gender as a "creative playing field." Pretty good.

Letting -- and even helping -- transgender young people transition to the gender they are most comfortable with certainly will not lead to mass confusion; instead the result is that a adolescent gets to be who they really are in an environment that supports them. Their peers can handle it, now we need to get the adults on board.

40 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"(Nov. 10) -- At age 77, Richard Ramsey is likely among the oldest people in the U.S. to undergo a sex-change operation.

In June, the 20-year Navy veteran from New Jersey became Renee, telling her doctor, "Now I'm the lady I always knew I was," reported the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Ramsey, who's one of about 70,000 people in the U.S. who would describe themselves as transgendered, says she knew from the time she was a child that she was "different" -- but went on to marry twice and have four children, the paper said.

"Now, the hardest thing I have to do is learn to be a lady," Ramsey said. "When I get angry at someone, I have to practice acting like a lady instead of sounding off like I used to do.""

November 10, 2009 6:19 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

I don't know up about the uniforms, but if their underwear can be seen, they need to pull up their pants, and invest in a belt.

rrjr

November 11, 2009 7:11 AM  
Anonymous Amy said...

Why can't rules just state "no student is allowed to wear midriff-baring blouses, stiletto heels, miniskirts, sagging pants, muscle shirts regardless of anatomical sex or gender expression." Just putting specific rules across the board does so much for regulating what can and cannot be done. It also stops males from breaking rules that females can't break and vice versa.

At my work, there are three rules. No showing off breasts, butt, or midriff. Plain and simple. Obviously school situations should have more than that, and my work is a very casual working environment, but having sex specific rules creates issues that are unfair to some students and creates double standards that are impossible to overlook.

November 11, 2009 9:29 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

A more complete version of Renee Ramsey’s story may be found in the Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/magazine/69543837.html

Some sections I thought were notable:

“Ramsey says he knew from the time he was 5 or 6 that he was "different." He shunned trucks and toy soldiers, preferring to dress up and play house with his two younger sisters. "I felt like I was their big sister, not their big brother," he says. "I liked doing lady things like cooking, sewing, and doing laundry. I didn't go for rough-and-tumble sports, never went out for baseball or football."

Although his father encouraged him to lift weights and exercise to develop his muscles, nothing worked. "Finally he gave up," Ramsey says. "He just shook his head when I told him, 'I'm not a boy. I'm a girl.' "

By 13, Ramsey was certain he had been given the wrong body, although he didn't know the name for what he was feeling. In school, he kept to himself and even got a medical note that excused him from gym because he was too embarrassed to get undressed in front of the boys. He felt he looked too feminine with his long, shapely legs and skinny body while the rest of the boys were more bulky and muscular.

When he was 15, his mother wandered into his bedroom and caught him slipping into her underwear. The next day, she made him an appointment with a psychiatrist. After months of therapy, the psychiatrist declared, "It is just a phase he's going through. . . . he'll get over it." Ramsey was devastated.

In 1952, he joined the U.S. Navy, thinking military service might make him more of a man. It didn't, and he endured being teased and called "little girl."

I guess after 62 years, one has to reconsider the “It is just a phase” paradigm.

“No one in the medical community is certain what causes someone to be transgender, but Norman P. Spack, a pediatric endocrinologist at Children's Hospital Boston, says the condition is not a mental illness and should not be classified as such in the psychiatrists' bible, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. "It has something to do with the wiring in the brain," Spack says. "It could be a gene that is expressed at a certain stage of fetal development or hormones that have gone awry during gestation."


May you find peace and contentment on this Veteran’s day, Renee, and thank you for your service to our country.


Cynthia

November 11, 2009 10:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If Ramsey wants to do this at the age of 77, I have no problem with it. He had every chance to live a full life and have children.

It's the people who are trying to convince young kids and teenagers to change their gender that are the abhorrent ones. Wanting to change gender is often "just a phase" that people grow out of. However, once some of these medical doctors and psychiatrists get a hold of these kids, and pump them full of hormones before the kids can even figure out what's what....well, they're dooming those kids to a life of hell. Look at the statistics on transgenders that have been reported on this website -- life is often miserable!

And what if these doctors and parents who indulge these children with sex change operations and hormones -- what if they're wrong, and the kid was, truly, going through a "phase"? How horrific is THAT? There's no going back, buddy. At least -- you won't have kids if you want them.

November 11, 2009 12:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"there are three rules. No showing off breasts, butt, or midriff"

this is a hateful and bigoted remark aimed at people who have breasts and butts

do unto others, people

November 11, 2009 1:27 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anon stated:

“It's the people who are trying to convince young kids and teenagers to change their gender that are the abhorrent ones.”

Exactly who is doing this? I haven’t seen anyone telling anyone else “You should be a transsexual! It will be SOOO much fun!” Most of the trans folks I know will tell you “I wouldn’t wish this (GID) on my worst enemy.” To be completely honest however, I can’t say I’m one of those. I’ve come across some particularly obnoxious individuals in my life that could learn a lot of humility and compassion for other human beings if they had to deal with GID first-hand. Given the harassment they have meted out to other people, I think it would be a well deserved punishment, as well as a useful learning experience.

“Wanting to change gender is often "just a phase" that people grow out of.”

I don’t know the prevalence of the “just a phase” group. However, that is the FIRST thing doctors look for when a child is brought in for evaluation – a process that typically occurs over a period of several months, and includes a thorough investigation of the child’s developmental history and the family dynamics. Even if a diagnosis of GID is made though, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the child is a transsexual. One of the things psychiatrists have come to learn over the past 20 years or so is that there is a continuum of gender expression – it is not just “male bodied person with masculine persona” and “female bodied person with feminine persona.” There are a number of people who find their most comfortable place somewhere in between, or perhaps even shifting around the spectrum a bit. These people typically do not want surgery or hormones, and frankly don’t need them. Some of them will do best with a little surgery (say, breast reduction, for example) or a small dosage of hormones.

“However, once some of these medical doctors and psychiatrists get a hold of these kids, and pump them full of hormones before the kids can even figure out what's what....well, they're dooming those kids to a life of hell.”

November 12, 2009 10:35 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

If you know of “a doctor pumping kids full of hormones before the kids can even figure out what’s what,” then they should have their license revoked immediately. Dr. John Money showed that GID could be induced in otherwise “normal” children by forcing them to identify with the wrong gender. Why he wasn’t immediately fired from his job at Johns Hopkins when they found out he was lying about how the patient was doing in his research papers, is completely beyond me.

There is a decades old protocol in place for dealing with GID – I have placed an excerpt at the end of this post. If you read through it carefully, and realize that it is not uncommon for pronounced signs of GID to show up between the ages of 3 and 9, you’ll see that these kids will have been monitored by doctors and parents for the better part of a decade before they reach age 16, where, if they are still showing signs of consistent cross-gender behavior (and typically, by this time it means living full time as the chosen gender) then they may be considered for hormones. At that point, they need to find an endocrinologist willing to treat them. When I went searching for an endocrinologist 6 years ago, I only found 1 in 3 different MD counties that would. I now know there are 2. I don’t know if any of them will treat a 16 to 18 year old. Keep in mind that insurance typically will not cover any of the psychotherapeutic or hormone treatments, as they specifically exclude “any procedure or therapy related to a sex change.” My endo visits cost me just under $700 a pop, twice a year. Insurance pays $0.00 of that. Depending on the hormone regimen, that can easily be a couple of hundred dollars a month. These are not the kind of expenditures parents take on lightly unless they REALLY are convinced their child needs it. Oh, did I mention the cost of the therapist as well?

“Look at the statistics on transgenders that have been reported on this website -- life is often miserable!”

Indeed it is, especially if your parents have kicked you out of your home for being trans, and you can’t find a job because you’re trans. But things are SLOWLY getting better in that area, as people learn more about the condition and realize we’re not “freaks” or “sexual deviants” or “mentally ill,” just human beings trying to do their best in life with an unfortunate condition of birth. That’s why I work to educate and enlighten people on the topic. If I can save some of these kids from the harassment that I faced growing up, their world will be a far better place, and those statistics will naturally improve.

Peace,

Cynthia

November 12, 2009 10:36 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Excerpt from Section 8 of the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~colem001/hbigda/hstndrd.htm

Treatment of Adolescents
In typical cases the treatment is conservative because gender identity development can rapidly and unexpectedly evolve. Teenagers should be followed, provided psychotherapeutic support, educated about gender options, and encouraged to pay attention to other aspects of their social, intellectual, vocational, and interpersonal development.
They may be eligible for beginning triadic therapy as early as age 18, preferably with parental consent.
Parental consent presumes a good working relationship between the mental health professional and the parents, so that they, too, fully understand the nature of the GID.
In many European countries sixteen to eighteen-year-olds are legal adults for medical decision making, and do not require parental consent. In the United States, age 18 is legal adulthood.
Hormonal Therapy for Adolescents. Hormonal treatment should be conducted in two phases only after puberty is well established.
in the initial phase biological males should be administered an antiandrogen (which neutralize testosterone effects only) or an LHRH agonist (which stops the production of testosterone only)
biological females should be administered sufficient androgens, progestins, or LHRH agonists (which stops the production of estradiol, estrone, and progesterone) to stop menstruation.
second phase treatments--after these changes have occurred and the adolescent's mental health remains stable
biologic males may be given estrogenic agents
biologic females may be given higher masculinizing doses of androgens

November 12, 2009 10:37 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

second phase medications produce irreversible changes
Prior to Age 18. In selected cases, the real life experience can begin at age 16, with or without first phase hormones. The administration of hormones to adolescents younger than age 18 should rarely be done.
first phase therapies to delay the somatic changes of puberty are best carried out in specialized treatment centers under supervision of, or in consultation with, an endocrinologist, and preferably, a pediatric endocrinologist, who is part of an interdisciplinary team.
two goals justify this intervention
to gain time to further explore the gender and other developmental issues in psychotherapy
to make passing easier if the adolescent continues to pursue gender change.
in order to provide puberty delaying hormones to a person less than age 18, the following criteria must be met
throughout childhood they have demonstrated an intense pattern of cross-gender identity and aversion to expected gender role behaviors
gender discomfort has significantly increased with the onset of puberty
social, intellectual, psychological, and interpersonal development are limited as a consequence of their GID
serious psychopathology, except as a consequence of the GID, is absent
the family consents and participates in the triadic therapy
Prior to Age 16. Second phase hormones, those which induce opposite sex characteristics should not be given prior to age 16 years.
Mental Health Professional Involvement is an Eligibility Requirement for Triadic Therapy During Adolescence.
To be eligible for the implementation of the real life experience or hormone therapy, the mental health professional should be involved with the patient and family for a minimum of six months.
To be eligible for the recommendation of genital reconstructive surgery or mastectomy, the mental health professional should be integrally involved with the adolescent and the family for at least eighteen months.
School-aged adolescents with gender identity disorders often are so uncomfortable due to negative peer interactions and a felt incapacity to participate in the roles of their biologic sex that they refuse to attend school.
Mental health professionals should be prepared to work collaboratively with school personnel to find ways to continue the educational and social development of their patients.

November 12, 2009 10:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cynthia --I'm glad to hear that you don't take the changes lightly. But based upon what you wrote here...how gross. Eighteen months of contact with a crazy doctor and a teenager can be given life-altering hormones.

You ask who is pumping hormones into kids? Try Dr. Norman Spack of the Boston Children's Hospital. Here's a quote from the man:

"SPACK: The biggest challenge is the issue of fertility. When young people halt their puberty before their bodies have developed, and then take cross-hormones for a few years, they'll probably be infertile. You have to explain to the patients that if they go ahead, they may not be able to have children. When you're talking to a 12-year-old, that's a heavy-duty conversation. Does a kid that age really think about fertility? But if you don't start treatment, they will always have trouble fitting in. And my patients always remind me that what's most important to them is their identity."

And Cynthia -- the materials handed out to eighth graders in the Montgomery County Public Schools make it appear as though changing gender is the easiest thing in the world. If you feel like a certain gender, well, then, you must be and life will be rosy. What a load of crap, pardon my language, to force feed our kids.

I contend that if we had surgery which allowed people to have an operation which made them look like chickens, and we normalized the process of turning them into chickens, then we'd have people lined up in the streets, claiming that they always wanted to be chickens.

November 12, 2009 12:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cynthia --I'm glad to hear that you don't take the changes lightly. But based upon what you wrote here...how gross. Eighteen months of contact with a crazy doctor and a teenager can be given life-altering hormones.

You ask who is pumping hormones into kids? Try Dr. Norman Spack of the Boston Children's Hospital. Here's a quote from the man:

"SPACK: The biggest challenge is the issue of fertility. When young people halt their puberty before their bodies have developed, and then take cross-hormones for a few years, they'll probably be infertile. You have to explain to the patients that if they go ahead, they may not be able to have children. When you're talking to a 12-year-old, that's a heavy-duty conversation. Does a kid that age really think about fertility? But if you don't start treatment, they will always have trouble fitting in. And my patients always remind me that what's most important to them is their identity."

And Cynthia -- the materials handed out to eighth graders in the Montgomery County Public Schools make it appear as though changing gender is the easiest thing in the world. If you feel like a certain gender, well, then, you must be and life will be rosy. What a load of crap, pardon my language, to force feed our kids.

I contend that if we had surgery which allowed people to have an operation which made them look like chickens, and we normalized the process of turning them into chickens, then we'd have people lined up in the streets, claiming that they always wanted to be chickens.

November 12, 2009 12:06 PM  
Anonymous anon-deluxe said...

anon-alt is right

the portrayal of gender change in the MCPS curriculum is egregious

who knows how some mixed up kid will take it

November 12, 2009 12:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"who knows how some mixed up kid will take it"...Not to mention what some crazed, undereducated, and bigoted adult like you has already taken it.

November 12, 2009 4:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous":
Is there anything or anybody who is preventing you from teaching your children in your own home about this? ("I contend that if we had surgery which allowed people to have an operation which made them look like chickens, and we normalized the process of turning them into chickens, then we'd have people lined up in the streets, claiming that they always wanted to be chickens.")

You seem to have little if any confidence that what you teach your own children will make any difference to them. Are you really so powerless an influence in their lives? I suppose that exposing your children to varying views of life and the multitude of differences encompasing humanity might actually make them more accepting and tolerant people, but I know you probably don't subscribe to that idea.

Seems to me you always have the opportunity (and responsibility) to teach your own (but not other) children whatever cockamamie theories you want and attempt to protect them by some sort of impervious bubble from the realities of the world. What you cannot do is prevent other parents from giving them the education they desire for their own children.
Athena

November 12, 2009 4:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why don't we take your argument and turn it around? Why don't those who want their children to be transgendered teach their children about it -- and leave the rest of the kids alone? Sounds like a great plan to me!

November 12, 2009 5:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hear-hear

if you want your kid to switch genders, indoctrinate them at home

November 12, 2009 5:31 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Why don't those who want their children to be transgendered teach their children about it -- and leave the rest of the kids alone

You don't get it, do you? Do you think every kid who takes math is going to be a mathematician or that every kid who takes history is going to be a historian?

The point of the MCPS curriculum revision is not so that parents can have their children be taught to have some specific sexual orientation or sexual identity. The classes are called "Respect for Differences in Human Sexuality" and that's what they teach -- differences in human sexuality and having respect for people who might be like you or not. The curriculum also teaches students to have respect for those with differing views about these differences.

If your religious beliefs are so strong that public education does not meet your needs, you need to enroll your kids in a school that fits your needs. The rest of us are happy public schools teach our children about our differences and respecting our diversity.

November 13, 2009 11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The curriculum also teaches students to have respect for those with differing views about these differences."

actually, the curriculum encourages disdain for anyone who holds to traditional sexual morality

"If your religious beliefs are so strong that public education does not meet your needs, you need to enroll your kids in a school that fits your needs."

public schools need to stop teaching humanism, which is a religious viewpoint

the religious viewpoints of all citizens need to be respected if their tax money is funding public schools, not just humanists

"The rest of us are happy public schools teach our children about our differences and respecting our diversity."

if allowed a voice, most parents, even in monkey county, wouldn't want their kids taught a fairy tale about homosexuality

traditional sexual morality is supported by the majority of our citizen of many different belief systems and is not intrinsically religious

November 13, 2009 11:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I second Anon's responses.

I don't even go to church and I don't want my kid to go to the Church of Insane Liberalism -- aka, Montgomery County Schools.

November 13, 2009 12:01 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

This is the Vigilance blog of Teach the Facts, and it seems to be time for me to teach some more facts.

the curriculum encourages disdain for anyone who holds to traditional sexual morality

Is that what you think? Why don't you show us the precise words in the curriculum that "encourage" this "disdain." Cut and paste the words that prove your assertion from the curriculum itself, which is found at the top link on the left side ("New Curricula") of the TTF RESOURCES page.

the religious viewpoints of all citizens need to be respected

Yes, non-discrimination is law in MoCo and a rule in MCPS. That's why in the eighth grade sex education curriculum revision, students are taught and tested to be sure they learned:

"People sometimes stereotype others based on their beliefs. Just as stereotyping others based on sexuality is not an acceptable behavior, stereotyping others based on personal beliefs also is not acceptable."

And in tenth grade, students are taught and tested to be sure they learned "Excerpts from Montgomery County Public School Policies ACB and ACA:

...“To affirm the Board of Education’s position that it regards all acts of hate/violence and illegal discrimination to be unacceptable and intolerable and in particular those based on race, color, national origin, religion, gender, age, marital status, socio-economic status, sexual orientation, physical characteristics or disability”


and

"Respect for the individual regardless of race, color, national origin, religion, gender, age, marital status, socio-economic status, intellectual ability, sexual orientation, physical characteristics, or disability"

I don't even go to church and I don't want my kid to go to the Church of Insane Liberalism -- aka, Montgomery County Schools.

So what school did you find for your kids that fits with your non-church-going anti-liberal views?

November 13, 2009 3:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"it seems to be time for me to teach some more facts"

when are you going to start?

November 13, 2009 4:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The simple fact that Montgomery County forces children to learn the ins and outs of gender identity, normalizing the behavior as just another life choice, is proof of the school's gross misconduct.

Also, almost any private school in Maryland is less corrupt than the Church of Extreme LIberalism, aka Montgomery County Schools.

November 13, 2009 4:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it hard to believe, "Anonymous", that you still are not aware (although I really do know better) that any parent may have their child excused from any Family Life unit that doesn't meet with their approval. ("The simple fact that Montgomery County forces children to learn the ins and outs of gender identity, normalizing the behavior as just another life choice, is proof of the school's gross misconduct.")

Your ludicrous statement shows your obvious disdain for and inability to support the Curriculum Objectives (Montgomery County Public School Policies ACB and ACA: "Respect for the individual regardless of race, color, national origin, religion, gender, age, marital status, socio-economic status, intellectual ability, sexual orientation, physical characteristics, or disability". (With thanks, Aunt Bea)

It is a fact that thousands of M.C. parents support these objectives and have given their permission and expressed their desire to have their children taught the information they want them to learn. Is it really that difficult for you to endorse teaching respect for the individual? If so, perhaps an alternative educational setting for your children would be the right choice for you.

The truth of the matter is that Montgomery County does NOT force children to learn the "ins and out of gender identity". The very idea that a curriculum FORCES any child to do anything is weird and unsupportable. The mere assertion of this is a laughable lie that undermines any credibility you ever hoped to have at this site.

If there is any "gross misconduct" it has to be on your part for endlessly pushing this LIE. Isn't the teaching about "bearing false witness" one of the tenets of your religious belief system?

Oh...and about your adolescent comment: "if allowed a voice, most parents, even in monkey county, wouldn't want their kids taught a fairy tale about homosexuality"

Parents do have a voice in MONTGOMERY COUNTY (you are just too, too cute), including the right to withold their children from ,in your view "objectional" Family Life units as well as in an even larger arena, known as "elections". In your case, YOU HAVE NEVER WON an election at any level because the majority of citizens here do not accept your insane views--(an example:"if you want your kid to switch genders, indoctrinate them at home".) Montgomery voters are too educated to accept ignorant and juvenile tripe like this.
RT

November 13, 2009 6:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A basic course in manners is ALL that is needed to teach children to be respectful of everyone.

We don't need to tell people that some people like to pick their nose while kissing, so we must be respectful of them. Some men like to have anal sex with other men, so we must be respectful of them. Some people like to smell each other's feet, so we must be respectful of them. Some people don't like to have sex, so we must be respectful of them. On and on and on...

Just one basic course in manners would take care of every one and every situation.

November 13, 2009 7:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Respect for the individual regardless of sexual orientation"

children should not be burdened with listening to your theories about sexual deviance being normal

sexual orientation is a propaganda term, there is no proof that when someone develops a lust for people of the same gender that it is any more than a preference or that their sexual activities couldn't be directed at an opposite gender partner

there is every reason to believe that this type of preference develops from external influences and that a healthy opposite gender relationship is achievable for all people

"It is a fact that thousands of M.C. parents support these objectives and expressed their desire to have their children taught the information they want them to learn."

there is absolutely no proof that most parents in monkey county want their children taught that homosexuality is normal

November 13, 2009 8:21 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

"it seems to be time for me to teach some more facts"

when are you going to start?


I've been doing it here for years. You haven't known that though because you remain, as always, blind to facts that don't fit your warped worldview.

When are you going to show us the text in the curriculum revision you feel "encourages disdain for anyone who holds to traditional sexual morality?" The full text of curriculum revisions are readily available on the RESOURCES page right here on this website. What's the hold up?

We don't need to tell people that some people like to pick their nose while kissing, so we must be respectful of them. Some men like to have anal sex with other men, so we must be respectful of them. Some people like to smell each other's feet, so we must be respectful of them. Some people don't like to have sex, so we must be respectful of them.

Go read the curriculum and stop spreading such lies about it. None of this fiction you have written is in it.

there is absolutely no proof that most parents in monkey county want their children taught

You are lying again Anon.

Every sex educator in MCPS sends home a permission slip to be signed by the parents/guardians before any student may enroll in the class. The proof that most parents/guardians want their children taught the sex ed curriculum is their signatures on all those permission slips. Over 90% of students receive such permission and that means most parents want their students to be taught what's in the curriculum, unless of course you think over 90% is not enough to qualify as "most."

November 14, 2009 9:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's obvious that you have never spent any time in a classroom or in a school, "Anonymous". Teachers deal with students just as they are and it has been obvious for many, many years now that parents have been negligent in their duty and responsibility to teach their children manners AT HOME.

You would be the very first person to protest the teaching of manners at school, seeing that effort as some sort of "liberal" attempt to brainwash the children in so-called "liberal values".

Your statements such as: "sexual orientation is a propaganda term, there is no proof that when someone develops a lust for people of the same gender that it is any more than a preference or that their sexual activities couldn't be directed at an opposite gender partner" and the comical and insulting "there is absolutely no proof that most parents in monkey county want their children taught that homosexuality is normal" (not to mention your constant demeaning and insulting comments to Aunt Bea and other TTFers here) further illustrate the point that you lacked proper education in manners, along with a sound educational training, yourself.
RT

November 14, 2009 10:10 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anon rhetorically asked:

“You ask who is pumping hormones into kids? Try Dr. Norman Spack of the Boston Children's Hospital. Here's a quote from the man:”

The quote you mention appears to come from the article here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/qa_with_norman_spack/?page=1

Here are some other quotes from the same article:

“SPACK: All I know is that when I see preadolescents, they have been dressing in the underwear of the other sex for years. These kids are almost certainly transgendered. They're a unique population of patients. By the time a kid comes in to see me, both parents have agreed that the child is in danger and needs some form of intervention. And that has led to heavy-duty counseling for the child and parents. Therefore I see young people and families who have been evaluated by skilled professionals.”


Dr. Spack is only treating individuals that have already received counseling and referrals by other doctors, and their parents have already agreed (usually VERY reluctantly) that anti-androgen or hormone intervention is the best course of treatment for the child. His patients have already been vetted to make sure they’re not one of those that might be “in a phase” that they’ll outgrow. Typically these kids are already living their lives in their chosen gender in order to minimize the dysphoria.


Another telling quote from the same article:


“IDEAS: So the aim of your treatment is to protect children from harming themselves?


SPACK: Transgendered kids have a high level of suicide attempts. Of the patients who have fled England to see me, three out of the four have made very serious suicide attempts. And I've never seen any patient make [an attempt] after they've started hormonal treatment.”

November 14, 2009 3:04 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Typically when any medication regimen like this is started, only very small doses are administered at first. This provides the opportunity to check for signs of any physical complications, as well as checking to see if the patient’s emotional life has improved. If there are any contra indications, either physically or emotionally, the treatment regimen will be immediate modified (if it is a physical complication that may be avoided by a change in the prescription) or completely stopped, if the physical complication can not be avoided, or the patient’s emotional state worsens. If several years of ani-androgen treatment have helped a teenager live a more comfortable life in their chosen role, parents and doctors alike have an indication that progressing to actual cross-hormone treatment will be productive. If the teenager is still not coping well, hormone treatment will not be administered, and other options will have to be considered.


Dr. Spack has helped save children’s lives. I’m sure the parents of his patients are grateful to him, even if they were reluctant to admit that they might even have a transsexual child to begin with, and had no desire to undergo procedures with such serious consequences.


There are of course therapists out there that will never give a recommendation for a teenager to go on anti-androgen or hormone treatments, and so they would never see Dr. Spack. As a parent, you just might seek out one of those doctors, as they force the child to subdue their natural inclinations and behave more like a “normal” child of the genitally defined gender. Their treatment plane includes things like having the male child take showers with his father so that he “becomes more accustomed and comfortable with his male body.” I have met a number of these patients at conferences and support groups years after their “treatment.” It did not “cure” them of GID at all. It only suppressed them for a number of years until they could get out on their own. Many hung on for years battling depression until they finally sought help that could actually improve their lives.


I have a hard time considering what these “therapist” do as real “therapy” though. I was sent to a therapist after my first suicide attempt at age 9 – I was sick and tired of trying to be a boy, and I prayed every night to God asking Him to let me wake up as a girl. But I didn’t have the nerve to tell the therapist any of that. I just told him I was sick and tired of being beaten up all the time and being called a “sissy.” After a while I learned how to mimic boys’ behavior, run fast, and be the “class clown” in order to avoid the harassment. I didn’t need a therapist to suppress my natural inclinations – classroom harassment was enough. It led to years of intermittent suicidal ideation until in 1998 I finally allowed myself to consider that I might actually be a transsexual, and not just a normal heterosexual male that had a secret habit of cross-dressing.

November 14, 2009 3:05 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Had knowledge of GID been more widespread and readily available back in the ‘70s when I was growing up, I’m sure my life would have been radically different, and in a good way. Had someone like Dr. Spack been available to me, I would have been spared going through the wrong puberty, saved $35,000 in facial surgery costs, as well as 1000 hours and $60,000 in electrolysis expenses. I’d like to think that I might have even had some kind of dating life.

Treating children and teenagers for full blown transsexualism is a challenging but important medical task. Unfortunately, there are no “easy” solutions. Until we have a way to go in and rewire the brain so that it matches the body, or perhaps use some kind of stem cell or genetic treatment to do the reroute neurons for us, we are left with 2 options: Force the child to conform to genital based “norms” and hope they don’t commit suicide, or carefully prepare them to live a relatively happy life coping with the consequences of a sex change. There is no “Door Number 3” at this time. Believe me, a lot of people wish there were.

Have a nice day,

Cynthia

November 14, 2009 3:06 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anon noted:
“And Cynthia -- the materials handed out to eighth graders in the Montgomery County Public Schools make it appear as though changing gender is the easiest thing in the world. If you feel like a certain gender, well, then, you must be and life will be rosy. What a load of crap, pardon my language, to force feed our kids.”

I personally am not familiar with the MCPS curriculum regarding this. I have not been involved with any of the curriculum activities or debates. Is any of it available on line? Perhaps someone can provide a link and I can make a more informed comment.

If it is indeed worded as described I would take some issue with it. One can certainly change their GENDER EXPRESSION easily, and many people do it on an intermittent basis, not just trans people. There are plenty of women who wear only slacks or jeans and maybe a nice blouse on a daily basis, but will put on a nice dress, pumps, hose, and do their hair and makeup for a nice dinner or formal occasion. There are others will never, EVER wear a dress, much less makeup, no matter WHAT the occasion. That’s all that gender expression is. Dolly Parton has a particularly feminine gender expression, and I’ve never seen her display anything else. Other women aren’t nearly so “girlie,” but they can be if they so choose.

If one is equating “gender” to “biological sex” then yes, that IS a very difficult change. I’d have to see the context in which the terms were used. Perhaps more precise wording would help.

Anon contended:

“I contend that if we had surgery which allowed people to have an operation which made them look like chickens, and we normalized the process of turning them into chickens, then we'd have people lined up in the streets, claiming that they always wanted to be chickens.”

November 14, 2009 5:12 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

I am not surprised that someone here named “Anonymous” would contend that. It’s a narrative from the transphobe agenda designed to make people like me look like out-of-their-mind, raving lunatics who have no ability to recognize the consequences of their actions, or at the very least have some kind of SERIOUS mental impairment and should probably be locked up for everyone’s safety.

While I’m sure this narrative is persuasive to people un-inclined to look at facts or think for themselves, or for those who find out all they ever needed to know about transsexuals from watching “Jerry Springer” reruns, this is simply not the case.

I refer yet again to the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~colem001/hbigda/hstndrd.htm
From Section 10 – the readiness criteria for surgery:
“Eligibility Criteria. These minimum eligibility criteria for various surgeries equally apply to biological males seeking genital reconstruction and biological females seeking mastectomy and phalloplasty. They are:
1. legal age of majority in the patient's nation
2. 12 months of continuous hormonal therapy for those without a medical contraindication
3. 12 months of successful continuous full time real-life experience. Periods of returning to the original gender may indicate ambivalence about proceeding and should not be used to fulfill this criterion
4. if required by the mental health professional, regular responsible participation in a psychotherapy throughout the real life experience at a frequency determined by the mental health professional. Psychotherapy, per se, is not an absolute eligibility criterion for surgery.
5. demonstrable knowledge of the cost, required lengths of hospitalizations, likely complications, and post surgical rehabilitation requirements of various surgical approaches.
6. awareness of different competent surgeons

November 14, 2009 5:13 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Readiness Criteria. The readiness criteria include:
1. demonstrable progress in consolidating the evolving gender identity
2. demonstrable progress in dealing with work, family, and interpersonal issues resulting in a significantly better state of mental health (this implies an absence of problems such as sociopathy, substance abuse, psychosis, suicidality, for instance).”

At the end of this list of requirements, they take the time to emphasize:


“Can Surgery Be Provided Without Hormones and the Real Life Experience?

Individuals who "just" want mastectomy, penectomy, or genital reconstructive therapy without meeting the eligibility criteria can not be provided bodily alterations because they are "special cases." Organ removal or remodeling is a surgical treatment for a gender disorder. The surgery occurs after many careful steps. Such surgery is not a patient right that once demanded has to be granted. The SOC contains provisions for an individual approach for every patient, but this does not mean that the general guidelines for the sequence of psychiatric evaluation, possible psychotherapy, hormones, and real life experience can be ignored because a person desires just one surgical procedure.”

Similar readiness criteria apply to taking hormones. The eligibility requirements ensure that only people who have demonstrated that they are FULLY aware of the issues consequences associated with these surgeries, and have spent months (usually years) discussing all the relevant issues with a therapist are going to be allowed surgery. Keep in mind, you have to somehow convince the doctor that you are fully sane, but at the same time you want him to give you permission to have your gonads removed. This is not an easy task. Not impossible, but certainly not easy.

If the surgery were not available, that would be extremely unfortunate. In India, where the status of Hijra (their term for transwomen, or “third gender”) took a serious downturn after the British took control, surgeries are not allowed. That didn’t stop the surgeries.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

November 14, 2009 5:14 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

“This process may culminate in a religious ritual that includes emasculation (total removal of the penis, testes and scrotum in men). Not all hijras undergo emasculation, and the percentage of hijras that are eunuchs is unknown. The operation — referred to by hijras as a nirvan ("rebirth") and carried out by a dai (traditional midwife) — involves removing the penis and scrotum with a knife without anesthesia.”

In one PBS documentary I saw, a dai was not available, and after a short celebration, the Hijra they were following went off to castrate herself.

Outlawing the surgery in India has not limited the number of Hijra either. It has only limited the numbers who have had surgery. They still live their lives in their chosen gender, usually at a very high social cost.

One might believe that if operations were available to turn people into chickens, that people would go for it. How many doctors do you think would do that? Would there be an international society developing guidelines for that as there are for transsexuals?

It is also interesting to note that there is no reference to people living as chickens in the bible – at least that I’m not aware of.

However, references to eunuchs (both “natural” and “made by man”) are sprinkled throughout the bible – even Jesus talked about them. Interestingly it was in the context of keeping a faithful marriage, and not divorcing:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Matt.19.html

9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery. 10The disciples say unto him, If the case of the man is so with his wife, it is not expedient to marry. 11But he said unto them, Not all men can receive this saying, but they to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

November 14, 2009 5:15 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

A particularly strict interpretation of this might suggest that those who cannot keep a faithful marriage should consider being a eunuch. People often anonymously comment here about keeping the “sanctity of marriage” in tact, and not “redefining the word marriage.” They also like to claim that allowing gays to marry would ruin straight marriages, yet I can remember folks lamenting increased divorce rates since the 1970s. It seems to me, that if one of the penalties for divorce or infidelity were becoming a eunuch, there would be a MUCH lower divorce rate. If you REALLY are serious about protecting marriage, then consider this.

But I digress.

Well, I have a social gathering to go to. It is of trans people and their loved ones – typically parents / children or spouses. Many on them are in the early stages of transition, and can use a little help, wisdom, and guidance. I’m going there to do what I can.

Have a nice evening.

Peace,

Cynthia

November 14, 2009 5:16 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

An interesting piece in the NYT about a wonderful piano player who happens to be trans. They include a video clip with excerpts of some of her performances.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/fashion/15genb.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Enjoy.

Cynthia

November 14, 2009 5:25 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

I personally am not familiar with the MCPS curriculum regarding this. I have not been involved with any of the curriculum activities or debates. Is any of it available on line?

Yes, Cynthia. The curricular revisions that include information about sexual orientation and sexual identity are right here on Vigilance's Resources page.

There are four sections:

Final Draft Condom Lesson
Final Draft Grade 8 Section 1
Final Draft Grade 8 Section 2
Final Draft Grade 10 Section 1
Final Draft Grade 10 Section 2

Grade 10 Section 1 includes information on gender identity and transgender, while Grade 10 Section 2 contains several vignettes about individuals, including one about Portia, a transwoman.

November 14, 2009 6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Divorce vs castration? Not getting the connection...

November 14, 2009 9:45 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Thanks for the links, Aunt Bea. Unfortunately I'm still finishing up this week's laundry, so it may be a while before I can review the materials and respond appropriately.

I hope you had a good weekend.

Take care,

Cynthia

November 15, 2009 11:05 PM  

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